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Selling all to buy a Leica M11?


LeicaTL35

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so. . . you go from film-M to digital & your digital experience is SL?

My background is M. My experience with  L-mount/IBIS, big lenses - it is a complete different world. With the M I take great pictures.

SL-S: the camera with its built-in EVF is great, delivers a superb 24MP file, but for me it is NO match for an M. Ergonomically. Enjoyment. I feel I'm outside of the scene, not part of it like the M allows me to be.

But I am afraid your current M-6 is a  'sleeper', a 'hidden in a drawer/closet' camera. Just a hunch. So does the M6 camera (still???) feel like an extension to your fingers and eyes?

Yes, why not experience the M240 - if you buy one, the depreciation is virtually nil. It delivers great results. It has a great palette.

And all lenses will work like a charm. You can use life view for the 21mm. And I use it to check the exposure level, that's all. What else do you need?

 

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Thank you all for your precious advises, insightful inputs. 🙏
Thanks to your opinions, I have decided to keep my both cameras.

They are really capable, robust and fun to use cameras. I believe I have overcome GAS syndrome (for now 😅)  I will try to find a second hand M10 or M240.

Actually, today I tried M-E 240, M240 original, M10-R and MP, M-A film cameras.

Digital M cameras feel solid, but they felt a little tiny and fragile after using M6, as @Ko.Fe. mentioned. 

MP 0.72 black paint, feels just fantastic, if I was looking for a second film camera, it would be it!

 I have found a demo M-240 camera in Madrid store. It is reasonably priced, which is around 3200 euros. I was also offered the demo M10-R, but still has a little steep price tag.
M-240 might be a good choice.

Edited by LeicaTL35
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By the way, I did not enjoy the M240 / 10 family of cameras at all and always went back to the M9 & film. There's just something about its files that always felt too digital/plasticky to me & I had to do major edits to get something I enjoyed. 

M11 files feel much better in that regard, so for me when it comes to digital M it's either the M9 (if you want to replicate the film experience on a digital body this is the closest you can get) or M11.

Film is still king though & nothing beats shooting a fully mechanical M film camera.

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LeicaTL35,  You made a wise decision.  I suggest you stick to it. GAS is a terrible disease.  You will find the M240 renders unlike other digital M cameras.  I also recommend you look at this site.  Many of the photographs were taken with various Leica cameras and lenses.  I found it to be a good reference tool to send my workshop clients who are wanting to see how the different cameras and lenses render.  Try:  https://onfotolife.com/lenses?lens=Leica  You can also click on the different cameras as well. Try:  https://onfotolife.com/camera_sample_photos?camera_id=89&page=1&iso_min=0&iso_max=65535   r/ Mark

Edited by LeicaR10
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4 hours ago, SrMi said:

If you had an M11, you would have a different opinion ("least desirable M upgrade in recent years").

So you mean I must buy an M11 to hopefully confirm your opinion of it? That really is insecurity and it's not a club I wish to join thank you, I can make my own mind up.

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2 hours ago, 250swb said:

So you mean I must buy an M11 to hopefully confirm your opinion of it? That really is insecurity and it's not a club I wish to join thank you, I can make my own mind up.

That is not what I meant and this is not about a specific camera. I do not care if anyone likes or dislikes M11 or any other cameras that I own and like.

IMO, in order to form a clear opinion about a camera (e.g., "least desirable upgrade in recent years"), one should use it first. You and many YouTuber's seem to disagree. C'est la vie.

 

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4 hours ago, 250swb said:

So you mean I must buy an M11 to hopefully confirm your opinion of it? That really is insecurity and it's not a club I wish to join thank you, I can make my own mind up.

Just wait - there are more requirements in the works.

When the M12 is announced, German law will mandate that you must buy one and make a minimum of 50,000 exposures with it before being permitted to comment about it on any forum, on YouTube or on Vimeo.

Edited by Herr Barnack
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Interesting dilemma, good luck with whatever you decide.  I noticed you have 21, 35, 50, 90 focal length lenses.  It must be challenging to focus the wide and tele end of your collection on an M body and likely the SL2 makes that job easier.   That suggests that if you chose to buy the M11 you'll likely want to add the optional EVF.  Doing that may change the feel of the M body in terms of how you shoot, making it closer to the SL2 that you might think.  This link will allow you to compare all your camera options to see the relative dimensions:  https://camerasize.com/compare/#885,843  

Another point to consider if you're shooting street photos is hypercritical focus.  Wide open Leica lenses are quite artistic, giving great bokeh and other options, but for street shooting I typically shoot at a stopped down f/5.6-8.0, set hypercritical focus and just concentrate on the image instead of the gear.  That negates the need to use the rangefinder for critical focus, which can be helpful in many circumstances especially if parallax is an issue.  Even a perfectly setup rangefinder is typically set for two meter composition.  Anything outside that range can lead to framing and focus issues, especially if stopped down.  That's less of an issue with a 35mm lens typically, which is likely why it's the most popular focal length on Leica M cameras.  For street work your ultra wide and tele lenses are likely less useful for that reason, making your current SL2 a very handy tool.

Look at your images and see what focal length, exposure setting, etc. you use most often.  If you narrow down the type of shooting you do, that may help you decide if the SL or M platform is a better match for what you want to create.  The SL2 with M lenses can be preset for street shooting pretty easily, as can the M body.  What the SL gives is the ability to go wide (21-24) or tele (90 and greater) without an external viewer that the M body would likely require, and to use the camera's EVF to capture sharp focus more precisely than an M rangefinder's view.  

I tried a similar experiment and wound up selling my M9/M-A bodies, and keeping my Leica Q and adding the SL 601 with the 24-90 lens.  For me it's a good combo.  A lightweight Q is portable with a 28mm f/1.7 lens and macro capability, and the SL with the 24-90 gives me the equivalent of a 24, 28, 35, 50, 75 and 90 focal length in one lens.  Yes, it's a heavy lens, but it covers 6 primary focal lengths allowing me to compose on the fly without lens changes.  For street photography the 24-90 is overkill, but if you change your style the SL camera will be able to handle anything you want to do.  If you have the M11 and 4 lenses, are you going to change them when photographing street scenes?  Not likely, so you'll likely use the 35 (or 50) for most shots.  That may help you decide on what gear you need, or may make you think about how much flexibility you want in your camera kit.  

I take the Q when I'm traveling for the low light capture and ability to shoot landscape or in confined spaces.  The SL does everything else easily.  The Q and SL have similar sensors, making it easier to edit afterward.  Even with a 24MP sensor I can print pretty large without issue.  And if I need to go very large the latest PhotoShop or Capture 1 packages let me upscale pretty easily without much concern about resolution.  

The point is that whatever you decide will work, especially if you take the time to determine what you want to accomplish and how much work you're willing to put into doing just that.  And yes, there are times that I miss having the film M-A.  It's like a Porsche 911 manual transmission sports car - unique and fun.  But with the SL/Q  combo I can devote more time to actually shooting, see the results in seconds and adjust on the fly easily.  It's not overly surprising to me that the 911 Manual is still a "Grail Car" for many, but both the PDK 911 and the EV Taycan outsell it.  

 

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7 hours ago, 250swb said:

So you mean I must buy an M11 to hopefully confirm your opinion of it? That really is insecurity and it's not a club I wish to join thank you, I can make my own mind up.

There is a different argument here: If you had an M11, you would have a different opinion.  Because if you really wanted it, then you would have bought it.  And if you had then had an M11, you would have it because you would have a different opinion.  😇

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7 hours ago, SrMi said:

That is not what I meant and this is not about a specific camera. I do not care if anyone likes or dislikes M11 or any other cameras that I own and like.

IMO, in order to form a clear opinion about a camera (e.g., "least desirable upgrade in recent years"), one should use it first. You and many YouTuber's seem to disagree. C'est la vie.

 

I have an M10, why would I want an M11? What is the secret ingredient I'm not seeing on the spec sheet that makes the camera and the photographs so much better today than yesterday? There are people that have to buy from a specific manufacturer the latest product, to own an extra 5 mph, or own more megapixels, but very few times does that extra 5 mph get used, and even fewer times do extra megapixels get used to make better photographs, and especially with a Leica rangefinder camera. 

4 hours ago, Herr Barnack said:

Just wait - there are more requirements in the works.

When the M12 is announced, German law will mandate that you must buy one and make a minimum of 50,000 exposures with it before being permitted to comment about it on any forum, on YouTube or on Vimeo.

That would be unreasonable, even if you photograph your breakfast, lunch, dinner, and supper that would take over thirty years, I suppose if you added in a couple of cappuccinos between meals, a sunset, and boats bobbing on the sea it may help, but what else is there to photograph to justify such draconian laws?  

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4 minutes ago, 250swb said:

That would be unreasonable, even if you photograph your breakfast, lunch, dinner, and supper that would take over thirty years, I suppose if you added in a couple of cappuccinos between meals, a sunset, and boats bobbing on the sea it may help, but what else is there to photograph to justify such draconian laws?  

Were you tying your shoelaces, Stephen, to make that one go straight over your head? :lol: 

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2 minutes ago, 250swb said:

I have an M10, why would I want an M11? What is the secret ingredient I'm not seeing on the spec sheet that makes the camera and the photographs so much better today than yesterday? There are people that have to buy from a specific manufacturer the latest product, to own an extra 5 mph, or own more megapixels, but very few times does that extra 5 mph get used, and even fewer times do extra megapixels get used to make better photographs, and especially with a Leica rangefinder camera. 

That would be unreasonable, even if you photograph your breakfast, lunch, dinner, and supper that would take over thirty years, I suppose if you added in a couple of cappuccinos between meals, a sunset, and boats bobbing on the sea it may help, but what else is there to photograph to justify such draconian laws?  

I do not know why you would want an M11. There are plenty of reasons why not to upgrade from M9, M240, or M10. For me, there are plenty of reasons why I would get an M11, but would never assume that it applies to others.

IMO:
I find it interesting how with the launch of every new digital M, the previous model does not become obsolete. That is different from other models/brands.

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14 minutes ago, jaapv said:

Were you tying your shoelaces, Stephen, to make that one go straight over your head? :lol: 

It's a comradely response to run with the joke, you know, a joke, like what people hope when they open their bill from the dentist 😄

Edited by 250swb
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For the record....I wanted more cropability so a while back sold my M10 for an SL2.......(still use an MP of course)  now its time to flog the SL2 and get an M11   lord I tried with the EVF etc etc but I'm just a 35mm/OVF kinda guy !      just having to wait til my dealer can deliver the M11 (chrome of course!)    SL2 is wonderful but just not my style of using and there is no point having lots of cash tied up in something you seldom carry around !

your mileage may vary !

 

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vor 13 Stunden schrieb LeicaTL35:

Thank you all for your precious advises, insightful inputs. 🙏
Thanks to your opinions, I have decided to keep my both cameras.

They are really capable, robust and fun to use cameras. I believe I have overcome GAS syndrome (for now 😅)  I will try to find a second hand M10 or M240.

Actually, today I tried M-E 240, M240 original, M10-R and MP, M-A film cameras.

Digital M cameras feel solid, but they felt a little tiny and fragile after using M6, as @Ko.Fe. mentioned. 

MP 0.72 black paint, feels just fantastic, if I was looking for a second film camera, it would be it!

 I have found a demo M-240 camera in Madrid store. It is reasonably priced, which is around 3200 euros. I was also offered the demo M10-R, but still has a little steep price tag.
M-240 might be a good choice.

Good decision IMO. If the M10r is not too  much more than the M10 then I would recommend to go with the M10r, not only because MP , also for the slightly better highlight handling and the silent shutter.

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Of all the cameras I bought and sold, the only one I really regret was an M6 TTL 0.85 fully-serviced, producing excellent results (traded for an M9 that I still have).  As someone else pointed out, to try to replace it now (assuming I could find one) would cost 2- or even 3-times as much as I sold it for.  If you like your M6, hold on to it as you may get to a point of thinking that shooting film still adds something that digital does not have.

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13 hours ago, shirubadanieru said:

By the way, I did not enjoy the M240 / 10 family of cameras at all and always went back to the M9 & film. There's just something about its files that always felt too digital/plasticky to me & I had to do major edits to get something I enjoyed. 

M11 files feel much better in that regard, so for me when it comes to digital M it's either the M9 (if you want to replicate the film experience on a digital body this is the closest you can get) or M11.

Film is still king though & nothing beats shooting a fully mechanical M film camera.

Yes, I never quite liked the M240 or M10 files for the reasons you mention (too digital/plasticky). Personally I sometimes found it hard, if not impossible for some images, to get to a more “filmic” rendering that I found pleasing.

The files I’ve tested with the M11 seem quite different in that regard, ie, it’s almost as if the higher resolution (and/or perhaps the way Leica has tuned the M11 sensor) creates additional “smoothness” to the files compared to what I saw off the M240/M10; I really don’t find the M11 files too sharp or digitally harsh. For me, this has made the M11 more “cinematic” in its image rendering out of the gate, much easier to process in that regard, even with the modern and very sharp APO lenses like the M 50.  With the M11 I see more fine detail, but it’s behaving with a less “digital” rendering at the same time.

Edited by Jon Warwick
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25 minutes ago, John Robinson said:

Of all the cameras I bought and sold, the only one I really regret was an M6 TTL 0.85 fully-serviced, producing excellent results (traded for an M9 that I still have).  As someone else pointed out, to try to replace it now (assuming I could find one) would cost 2- or even 3-times as much as I sold it for.  If you like your M6, hold on to it as you may get to a point of thinking that shooting film still adds something that digital does not have.

I can imagine, I found the TTL 0.85 also my dearest M6.

To OP: I want to remind you that the price of M6 camera's have gone skyhigh, about doubled in 2 or 3 years. You will loose a lot of money in case you come to regret it and you want to buy it back. There is a risk indeed with M11 in the beginning with 60Mp for movement blur, and the chance that you will miss the SL2 will be big I'm sure.

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