Is the M10 the last “Real” Leica ?

[Mike Hawley]

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Now the dust on the M11 launch is starting to settle and the marketing hype is analysed I wonder whether Leica enthusiasts will ponder why Leica are trying to compete with Sony, Fujifilm et al in producing high-tech, automated, electronic M  cameras. The charm and challenge of the M series is surely rooted in its minimalist reliance on automation and its finely engineered mechanical excellence. The combination of a finely crafted product and the need to use your own skill and experience is the USP of the Leica M series.
Leica already produce a range of cameras that compete directly with the Japanese products (SL. Q. etc) why has the M series been sacrificed on the altar of high tech automation and mega megapixels? The M11 would appear to replicate Fujifilms excellent X-pro3  without the EVF option and with the unwanted additional file size.

The concept of metering off the sensor is utilised in all mirror less cameras and is undoubtedly more accurate than having to use your own knowledge and experience but the input of the photographer is surely central to the M series experience. As to the increased sensor size 24 megapixels is more than adequate to produce 80cm prints so unless I’m going into billboard production why would I need 60mp ?
I understand the marketing imperative of newer, bigger, better, easier to use but surely the Leica M series is the last bastion of traditional, thought based photography and shouldn’t be subject to the commercial pressures of a misguided marketing department. 

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[Adam Bonn]

The last M that only had the option to meter off the shutter curtain was the 262

The 240 had the exact same metering ability as the M11 (shutter open, but LCD off)

Reading the many threads on here that amount too, I want IBIS, I want an Evf built in, I want clean ISO up too a gazillion, etc I would say that people want tech, and that tech sells

digital is not a static platform that can remain commercially viable with tiny upgrades and tweaks (like the wristwatch industry), in order to survive Leica need to keep improving their products in a way that the market responds too.

(FWIW a few of my ‘I’d never own a Leica M’ friends are really taken with the M11, they like the variable resolution, all day battery and reliable metering, they use the phrase “ticks all the boxes”)

[Hans-Dieter Gülicher]

I really think so Mike. My M 10-R plus APO-Elmarit 35 mm plus Visoflex 2 is my prefered, excellent and lightweight combination, especially for an old boy. 40,7 mp are enough but I need closer distances up to 30 cm. For my work = prints up to A3+ and HDAV-projects on my 4500 x 3000 mp monitor the M 10 is absolutely o.k.. My big boy S3 is staying in the box.

Regards Hans

[jaapv]

On 2/1/2022 at 10:27 AM, Mike Hawley said:

I wonder whether Leica enthusiasts will ponder why Leica are trying to compete with Sony, Fujifilm et al in producing high-tech, automated, electronic M  cameras.

Because it is 2022?  IMO the last real M was the M9. The world came to an end with the Visoflex.

[Viv]

The last real Leica was the Zeiss Ikon.

[LocalHero1953]

6 minutes ago, Adam Bonn said:

The 240 had the exact same metering ability as the M11 (shutter open, but LCD off)

Yes, but it also had the metering off the curtain option by default, which the M11 does not have. I think it is the removal of that option that disturbs some.

1 minute ago, jaapv said:

IMO the last real M was the M9

No, it was the [M7/M4-2/M3/IIIg/II Model D].😁
There is probably a correlation between your choice and either your age, or how long you have been using Leicas!

Film camera bodies did not influence image quality that much compared to lenses. Digital bodies are roughly equally weighted with lenses, so there is bound to be a greater emphasis on upgrading the bodies so as not to be left behind as sensor, exposure and focusing tech improve.

[pgk]

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11 minutes ago, jaapv said:

IMO the last real M was the M9.

I have two. If I can find another low mileage copy I would be tempted. Even a mono version.

[evikne]

I understand that Leica must participate in the technological rat race, but can't they please leave the M alone? At least, I wish Leica could offer one M version, in addition to the others, that is completely stripped of unnecessary features. As close to an analog M as possible, just with a digital sensor.

That essentially means: no screen, a few good MP. And leave the rest to the others.

Edited February 1, 2022 by evikne

[Adam Bonn]

38 minutes ago, jaapv said:

IMO the last real M was the M9

What does the m9 do with purity that the M262 doesn’t? Frameline windows? Brass top plate?

 

18 minutes ago, evikne said:

That essentially means: no screen, a few good MP. And leave the rest to the others.

Like the M-D 262? (No phone app for that one!)

[Adam Bonn]

39 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

Yes, but it also had the metering off the curtain option by default, which the M11 does not have. I think it is the removal of that option that disturbs some.

I know right? I mean before we pointed the camera at something and the camera made a judgement call on the exposure and we either accepted it or used our experience to overwrite it with our own choice, and now with this newfangled whiz bang tech we point the camera at something and the camera makes a judgement call on the exposure and we either accept it or use our experience to overwrite it with our own choice

what a time to be alive 😅
 

(I’m not saying you’re disturbed by it)

Edited February 1, 2022 by Adam Bonn

[evikne]

5 minutes ago, Adam Bonn said:

Like the M-D 262? (No phone app for that one!)

Pretty much. I prefer the design and slimness of the M10-D. And the app could be useful. But maybe connected with a USB cable instead of cumbersome Wi-Fi.

[otto.f]

About the title of this thread: if there's a question about 'real' Leica, you forget that viewing through the lens with an SLR has a long time been real Leica too. It's not that only the M tradition is real Leica, although this was its outstanding line. Leica has not in the least built a reputation by its magnificent R lenses. The S line is still a serious competitive alternative for a Hasselblad.

'Does the M11 have tension with the tradition and the essentials of the M philosophy?', is a more adequate way of posing the question I think. 

Edited February 1, 2022 by otto.f

[Guest]

The thing is nowadays that camera companies and their products are more akin to computer makers. In that world to stay afloat computers and the related "toys" have to be constantly "upgraded" to swim in ever increasingly turbulent waters and to remain afloat against the competition. Buyers too are demanding, or believe that they want, more automation in just about anything, from Tesla's to Nests, sadly there's no way back. For me that consumerist philosophy is regrettable but for Leica to survive it has to follow the market as best it can whilst trying to appeal to it's traditionalist core, a difficult dance to music that's constantly changing. Whether one chooses to go along on that ride is still up to each consumer.

Edited February 1, 2022 by petermullett

[Cobram]

1 hour ago, Hans-Dieter Gülicher said:

I really think so Mike. My M 10-R plus APO-Elmarit 35 mm plus Visoflex 2 is my prefered, excellent and lightweight combination, especially for an old boy. 40,7 mp are enough but I need closer distances up to 30 cm. For my work = prints up to A3+ and HDAV-projects on my 4500 x 3000 mp monitor the M 10 is absolutely o.k.. My big boy S3 is staying in the box.

Regards Hans

APO Elmarit 35mm? Never heard of this lens till today. Can you share with us additinal info?

[otto.f]

1 hour ago, Mike Hawley said:

I wonder whether Leica enthusiasts will ponder why Leica are trying to compete with Sony, Fujifilm et al in producing high-tech, automated, electronic M  cameras.

They cannot go on with relying on a shrinking group of grumpy old men who are grown together with the M(anual) way of handling a camera. The way of dealing and the speed of working with digital gear, not only camera's, is much more embedded in the younger generations. I think Leica tries with the M11 to stand on both sides of the canyon for its survival. 

I wonder however whether the M10R will be still produced now that the M11 is out.

[LocalHero1953]

54 minutes ago, Adam Bonn said:

I know right? I mean before we pointed the camera at something and the camera made a judgement call on the exposure and we either accepted it or used our experience to overwrite it with our own choice, and now with this newfangled whiz bang tech we point the camera at something and the camera makes a judgement call on the exposure and we either accept it or use our experience to overwrite it with our own choice

what a time to be alive 😅
 

(I’m not saying you’re disturbed by it)

I have no skin in this game. The M240 was my last digital M, and my current concerns are how to take a picture with a IIf.😉
I have the SL2-S when I need technical support.

[jaapv]

1 hour ago, pgk said:

I have two. If I can find another low mileage copy I would be tempted. Even a mono version.

Especially the mono version. The successors never managed to capture that tonality and look, especially if coupled with a  vintage lens.

It is my ultimate never-sell camera.

[Hans-Dieter Gülicher]

vor 50 Minuten schrieb Cobram:

APO Elmarit 35mm? Never heard of this lens till today. Can you share with us additinal info?

Sorry, it`s the APO-Summicron M 35 mm.

Redards Hans

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[evikne]

1 hour ago, otto.f said:

They cannot go on with relying on a shrinking group of grumpy old men who are grown together with the M(anual) way of handling a camera. The way of dealing and the speed of working with digital gear, not only camera's, is much more embedded in the younger generations. I think Leica tries with the M11 to stand on both sides of the canyon for its survival. 

Has the M survived because of or despite its simplicity and "shortcomings"?  🤔

[pgk]

2 hours ago, otto.f said:

They cannot go on with relying on a shrinking group of grumpy old men who are grown together with the M(anual) way of handling a camera. The way of dealing and the speed of working with digital gear, not only camera's, is much more embedded in the younger generations. I think Leica tries with the M11 to stand on both sides of the canyon for its survival.

Thee are many reasons to shoot manually besides being grumpy and old(er) - such as consistency of exposure in a series of images as an example. But trying to get an M to 'compete' technologically with the (cheaper) alternatives, relies on persuading photographers new to the concept of manual systems that an M (costlier) is worth buying. Trying to hybridise will eventually dilute the raison d'être of the M and show up is shortcomings. It is what it is and that is not a 'competitive' EVF camera.

Edited February 1, 2022 by pgk