Poll: what do you hate more, EVF-only M or M with video?

[Tailwagger]

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3 hours ago, jaapv said:

Historically Leica is very much entwined with video and movie. The 24x36 format is based on movie film...

While I have no interest in video per se, I'd love to see Leica produce an anamorphic lens or two in M-mount.  If adding video to the M made that more likely, fine by me.  That said, I think that this functionality is more appropriate in an upcoming __evf (insert what ever letter you care to).  As the body would no longer be so tightly constrained by history and RF,  there's less baggage and bile to overcome in that context and the ability to add IBIS. 

[jaapv]

Well, to use a proper EVF I switched to EVF cameras - whilst the EVF on the M cameras is a useful addition, it still is a bit like a waltzing Elephant.

[david strachan]

Yes, it's a bit of a carbuncle, like all viewfinders, but great to still use my M-P for close-ups and copying. And my several v good Nikkor zoom lenses.

This way i still get to keep a RF system, with add-on to allow off-the-sensor focusing.

After all Leica was always a systems camera.

...

Edited January 28, 2022 by david strachan

[Tailwagger]

42 minutes ago, jaapv said:

Well, to use a proper EVF I switched to EVF cameras - whilst the EVF on the M cameras is a useful addition, it still is a bit like a waltzing Elephant.

Funny, I did the reverse. I started with EVF cameras over a decade ago but in the end decided that dancing with elephants was far more fun. 😃

[SrMi]

1 hour ago, jaapv said:

That is exactly the point. If you don't want to use a feature, it should get out of the way. If you could simply put the camera into video mode in the menu, nobody could reasonably complain.

The only way a video function could get in the way if there is one additional menu page devoted just to video.

[M Journey]

I think getting a sense of where users on this forum stands on these issues of Video and EVF is fine but agree that this shouldn't be posed as a negative survey.  I really don't understand what you are trying to do here @setuporg.  In some posts you talk about having a m11 on order, and in other posts you are blasting the m11 and it's features.  Feels like you are stirring the pot purposely to drive responses to your posts...

Leica isn't Sony.  It can't offer 4-5 variants of a m body to satisfy all the different tastes (special editions aren't variants, just a new shell over the same item and -p versions aren't the same camera with 2-3 features added).  It is a service to Leica for them to know how to keep the majority of their customers happy and how to attract new customers.  If 75% of current Leica M users are ok with IBS, EVF, Video, etc, then they should put it in.  if 5,000 people say they would buy into the M system if a new feature is added, and that number is greater than the number of current customers they would lose, then they should add those features.

Also, experience in surveys shows that people are mad or have a negative opinion are exponentially more likely to complete a survey than people who are happy and positive about what the survey is about.  Just like how people are 10x more likely to complain about a bad experience than then to report an excellent experience.  That would show that the 43% (as of this post) measurement of voters saying they would welcome EVF and video on a m camera is more reflective of the sentiment of 80-90% m users.

I get on this forum because I'm new to the M system and I learn quite a bit from reading posts.  I just wish there was a lot less negativity.  Why are there so many m11 detractors in the m11 forum anyway?  

 

[setuporg]

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Quite simply, I’m trying to understand why some people prefer EVF to OVF, but still don’t like video.  If you don’t like for a negative sentiment to be called hate, consider the passions and see how those who don’t want video don’t really want it at all.  The term might be better but those folks should not blame the mirror.  

I personally consider those who want an EVF but not the video to be a bit disingenuous as a fully electronic M becomes a video-ready machine.

This forum is about engagement.  We all elicit each other’s opinions.  

[M Journey]

Decades ago, when I first started to supervise people, I was given some constructive criticism - It doesn't matter how you want to be perceived, what matters is how you are perceived.  I think engagement is great.  Finding out why people prefer some features over others is great and can often be beneficial.  I think that there is a way to go about engagement and discussion.

I believe in freedom of speech.  I just want to reiterate that I have seen multiple people post on several threads in the m11 forum about the negativity.  For people who do not mean to come across as negative, maybe take this as a sign to be more tactful.  For those that just want to troll, maybe consider going to the dpreview forums?

For the record, I'm not directing this toward anyone in particular.  I don't think that anyone is on this forum just to be antagonistic.  I'm just speaking up, like several other forum members, and noting that things are getting less and less enjoyable.

Regarding why people like OVF or EVF - My first real camera was the Nikon z6.  I got used to the EVF before every using an OVF.  Currently I am undecided if I prefer the OVF/rangefinder over the Visoflex 2 on the m11.  Some days I take the EVF, some takes I purposely leave it behind to better my RF focusing technique.  My only lens is a 35mm so the benefit of seeing what is happening around my frame is minimal.  I can say for a fact that I miss having a rear LCD that pulls out and articulates for the overhead shots and low shots.

Two more popular sayings before I need this post - "People don't care how much you know, until they know how much you care."  And - "Who cares what John thinks, he's a d!**."  

 

Edited January 28, 2022 by M Journey

[setuporg]

These are all great points, @M Journey!  It’s great to have new perspectives.  I don’t think anyone here is really antagonistic, except for a few rare trolls.  However folks have strong opinions and cut through marketing BS as knife through butter.  It’s totally fine to have a vigorous debate.  A new M always stirs passions, putting conservatives against early adopters.  Leica deserves to be chastised for QA issues like any other manufacturer, and issues are reported at once.  Nothing new here either, and I’m positive Leica appreciates all the feedback.  Nobody forces anyone to read all threads just like nobody forces one to buy any Leicas.  Peace.

[lct]

Do you hate more white or red wines?

[M Journey]

10 minutes ago, setuporg said:

These are all great points, @M Journey!  It’s great to have new perspectives.  I don’t think anyone here is really antagonistic, except for a few rare trolls.  However folks have strong opinions and cut through marketing BS as knife through butter.  It’s totally fine to have a vigorous debate.  A new M always stirs passions, putting conservatives against early adopters.  Leica deserves to be chastised for QA issues like any other manufacturer, and issues are reported at once.  Nothing new here either, and I’m positive Leica appreciates all the feedback.  Nobody forces anyone to read all threads just like nobody forces one to buy any Leicas.  Peace.

"Nobody forces anyone to read all threads just like nobody forces one to buy any Leicas" - This is not true.  The photos thread and Jono's reviews made me buy into the M system.  Jono has bankrupted more people in 2022 than the stock market!

[M Journey]

Just now, lct said:

Do you hate more white or red wines?

I'm a beer man!  Nothing beats a good hefeweizen on a sweaty day, or with a perfect medium-rare aged ribeye with a fantastic sear.

[michali]

1 hour ago, lct said:

Do you hate more white or red wines?

Now we're getting into serious territory  ☺️ for me it's not a debate,  I love all good white & red wines equally, depending on what food's on the menu 😋

[setuporg]

2 hours ago, lct said:

Do you hate more white or red wines?

I like good wine!:)

[pop]

6 hours ago, jaapv said:

If you don't want to use a feature, it should get out of the way.

Oh, yes? I don't think I'll ever use the distance scale on any of my lenses. What's more, I have several lenses that I have never used at three meters, only for landscapes and portraits from close up.

[LUF Admin]

3 hours ago, setuporg said:

This forum is about engagement.  We all elicit each other’s opinions.

Yes, the forum is about engagement and exchanging different opinions.

Polls or questions with a negative sign („what do you hate more“) may result in engagement – but a kind of engagement that is bad for the forum and the community.

Such polls or certain questions may look open but they imply a negative message. 

And this is the reasons why starting polls is (and should have been) a privileg of admins. My fault that the permissions weren't set correctly.

If you are interested in starting a poll, please contact me.

Andreas

[ianman]

4 hours ago, setuporg said:

I’m trying to understand why some people prefer EVF to OVF, but still don’t like video.

I’m trying to understand why these 2 features should be so closely linked. There can be very good reasons why one would prefer evf over ovf but still not give a hoot about video.

[ianman]

23 minutes ago, LUF Admin said:

Yes, the forum is about engagement and exchanging different opinions.

Polls or questions with a negative sign („what do you hate more“) may result in engagement – but a kind of engagement that is bad for the forum and the community.

Such polls or certain questions may look open but they imply a negative message. 

And this is the reasons why starting polls is (and should have been) a privileg of admins. My fault that the permissions weren't set correctly.

If you are interested in starting a poll, please contact me.

Andreas

Whatever poll is made, it should always have the “other” or “none of the above” option… otherwise they are meaningless. I didn’t choose any option in this poll - and many other you have set up simply because none of the options available represent or even come close to my opinion.

Much like so many web forms I see all over the place, it’s obvious that with these polls little or no thought has gone into the design or the users perspective.

Edited January 28, 2022 by ianman

[setuporg]

7 hours ago, ianman said:

Whatever poll is made, it should always have the “other” or “none of the above” option…

That's exactly what the last option is for, as usual.

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Hallo,

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[setuporg]

7 hours ago, LUF Admin said:

Such polls or certain questions may look open but they imply a negative message. 

 

All true, but the negativity against video or EVFs was already present here since time immemorial.  Also we hate complexity, plastic sop boxes with a million buttons, anything that detracts from actual photography experience, etc.  There's nothing wrong with liking or disliking something.  For marketing purposes it could be called "like less," which is akin to the American way of saying that 2.99 is 3.

But I certainly agree, Andreas, the message might work better without strong words -- please feel free to edit the subject and everywhere in the poll post, "what do you hate more" => "what is worse", as in the question now.

Edited January 28, 2022 by setuporg