Would you buy an EVF only M camera? [MERGED]

[pegelli]

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11 hours ago, JulyLL said:

Thank you, I think most people are afraid of change. Again the modern M is nothing like the original so why stop? 

I think you're grossly oversimplifying a lot of the responses here.

The way I read it is that several people (incl. me) disagreeing with an M11A with EVF, IBIS and autofocus say a few things but mainly:

- An M-camera without a viewfinder/rangefinder is no longer a true M-series camera and would hate to see the VF/RF aspect of the M-series disappear.

- Bringing AF with M-mount lenses is possible by moving the mount instead of the lens, which can be done but the current examples of this technology are clunky

- With a fixed M-mount in such a camera the only option for AF is a new range of lenses

I'm for sure not against change and the Sony A7C proves it is possible to have a FF/EVF camera with IBIS fit in a small body, and if Leica develops something like that who are we to protest that if they keep the rangefinder/viewfinder M-series alive? The only question is if there is enough market for such a camera built by Leica at typical Leica pricing and if it wouldn't be easier and better saleable if it would have an L-mount instead of a M-mount? That's just an opinion which is no more or less valid than yours and the only way we will ever find out who is right is if Leica develops and brings such a camera to market. All the rest is just speculative armchair product planning.

Edited December 9, 2022 by pegelli

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[tom.w.bn]

vor 7 Minuten schrieb Musky:

Have you ever looked through the A7C EVF? It is by far and away the worst EVF ever put on a camera at that price point.

Can it be worse than the Panasonic S5 EVF?

[Jewl]

vor 3 Stunden schrieb DenverSteve:

I‘d be happy already with having a non crashing / error free M11. If I think of even more electronic features in an M body, this could get interesting in terms of reliability and robustness 😉 

If you are having crashing with an M11, you should contact Leica and have it addressed (assuming you have downloaded and installed all firmware updates.  Or maybe I'm the only one with a properly functioning M11.  

That's exactly the thing. They cannot find any issues. That's why we are struggling like this. The camera was 3 times in Wetzlar. Not easy to reproduce obviously. And I see even more of these problems coming the more tech features are pressed into the camera! If I knew this before I would have sticked to my M10P to be very honest. And no, please don't advise to sell the M11 and buy again an M10, have spent too much money for this anyway.

And, I am also in the opinion that change overall is good. But if the change does not fit the actual idea of the product line (range finder, manual focus blabla), it does not make sense to me. Of course, if the product line overall becomes obsolete as the market demand is not there anymore, then maybe... They could rather improve the SL body (make it more slim / good looking? - this is anyway dependent on the viewer, some people love the design more than the M) as there most of the desired features are already available.

But I don't think they can make an SL auto focus lens as small & handy as a manual M lens. This is technically not possible (as of today). So the discussion from my point of view is irrelevant  Of course there might be smaller lenses already but still, not as handy as the M lenses. 

[Erato]

Interesting. My journey led me to purchase a Barnack rangefinder last week.

There's a good chance that I'll place an order for another Barnack clone soon.

Maybe I am just stupid enough, I guess.🤣

[pegelli]

55 minutes ago, Musky said:

Have you ever looked through the A7C EVF? It is by far and away the worst EVF ever put on a camera at that price point.

No I haven't, but I think your point is an irrelevant detail. Obviously Leica would put a much better EVF in such a camera if they chose to develop one.

Btw, is it worse than the Olympus EVF 2 that I use on my M246M?

Edited December 9, 2022 by pegelli

[lct]

4 hours ago, DenverSteve said:

Hmmmm..........But, there isn't any reason to make the M bigger or heavier.  We already have that technology and it's been discussed, and discussed, and dis............ The CL is a M-shaped body with interchangeable lenses (which, of course) you can mount your M lenses on.  We also have the Q cameras which, again, are M-type bodies and have; stabilization, autofocus, EVF, large sensor...... but the lens, of course, is fixed.   As has been hit upon numerous times, it's folly to lust after a M11 (for example) and say "I would buy one of these great partly-manual cameras, if they just put in full electronics and changed it to suit my needs."  Then just buy a camera that does what you need/want.  What you've described is an A7c.  Everything people are asking for is already in the CL and Qs.  The easy answer is to take the discontinued CL digital and put in a FF sensor which would make it faster, lighter and cheaper than a M. OR take the Q system and convert it to a new ILC body and use the L-mount so AF and M glass could be used.  The CL wasn't discontinued because it's not an excellent camera - it is.  I believe it was slashed because Lecia never really pushed it & decided to focus on full-frame offerings.  I love mine (CL) for the times I know I want a small camera w/ zoom and great pictures and don't want to carry two bodies at the time.   To me, what people are actually saying is, "I don't want to buy 2 Leicas, but I want an M camera so, change the M cameras so I don't have to have an M and Q2 or M & CL or M &........... Leica will never please those who want major changes to the M because every time they make advancements/changes they aren't enough - and probably never will. 

You give me the feeling to answer to my arguments without having read them sorry. The EVF-M we are (at least i am) discussing about is not supposed to be a compact SL or a full frame CL but an M mount camera with a built-in EVF in place of the RF. Would be a camera for M lens users exclusively. It would not replace current RF cameras, just complement them the same way as we got film M cameras without rangefinder in the past.

[MRJohn]

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I suspect that interest, demand or desire for an EVF-M is rather underestimated because of current demographic enrichment of M purists. Leica can probably make one quite easily. Put it out on kickstarter and hit the production button once it hits the break even number (1000 pieces?), then we will see. Take my preorder.

[lct]

29 minutes ago, MRJohn said:

I suspect that interest, demand or desire for an EVF-M is rather underestimated because of current demographic enrichment of M purists. Leica can probably make one quite easily. Put it out on kickstarter and hit the production button once it hits the break even number (1000 pieces?), then we will see. Take my preorder.

Excerpt of macfilos.com:

Quote

The prospect of a light mirrorless camera with a native M mount was attractive. And, as someone else pointed out, an M body with built-in EVF instead of the rangefinder would probably be welcomed as a second body, even by rangefinder diehards.
In response to this, Stefan surprised the audience by saying that if there was sufficient demand, Leica would consider producing an M with EVF. Asked how many they would need to sell in order to make such a decision, he estimated “a couple of thousand”. (..)
I thought that a two-thousand-unit estimation was very low, and I worried we might have gained the wrong impression. So I spoke to Stefan after the presentation, asking specifically if his reference to a “couple of thousand” meant two thousand, which almost all audience members had inferred. He agreed that he hadn’t used “a couple” in the strict sense of two and was probably thinking more in terms of “several” thousand. He couldn’t be more specific, but I interpret several thousand as higher than three and possibly less than ten.

[jaapv]

3 hours ago, pegelli said:

Leica would put a much better EVF in such a camera if they chose to develop one.

 

AFAIK Leica does not develop such things themselves.

[pegelli]

31 minutes ago, jaapv said:

AFAIK Leica does not develop such things themselves.

Agree, they would just buy the best they can get from a well established manufacturer and integrate that in this "new" body. If they went this way of course, at this moment it's only vapourware

Edited December 9, 2022 by pegelli

[SrMi]

40 minutes ago, jaapv said:

AFAIK Leica does not develop such things themselves.

Leica does develop its EVFs if you consider that EVF is a system, not only the OLED panel.
That is why Leica's EVFs are typically much better in practice than the ones in Sony cameras (to my eyes), even if recent Sony models have higher resolution EVFs.

[SrMi]

Just now, Al Brown said:

"Leica M lenses will never be autofocus."
         -- Peter Karbe, 2021.

One can AF with Leica M lenses with the help of an adapter (Techart on Sony). However, I have no idea how well it works.

[MRJohn]

1 hour ago, lct said:

Excerpt of macfilos.com:

I mean seriously, take out the mechanical rangefinder, put in the Visoflex 2 organs and cover up the front rangefinder window with an LED flash patch. As a compromise to the purists, leave out the rear screen (I love my M10-D) and make it more profitable this way, perhaps even as an à la carte solution.

[Kwesi]

1 hour ago, MRJohn said:

As a compromise to the purists, leave out the rear screen (I love my M10-D)

...but stick a flash in front of the camera?

[lct]

I can see some economic reasons why such a prospect might fail but i'm surprised at some respected LUF members objecting to the idea of simply replacing the RF by a built-in EVF. The bump of the Visoflex 2 is not monstrous per se. Would it be too big to replace an RF like this? Or do they believe that the EVF-M would deserve a better hence bigger EVF? Just curious.

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[jaapv]

I don’t object to the idea but fail to see the sense it makes. 

[lct]

27 minutes ago, jaapv said:

I don’t object to the idea but fail to see the sense it makes. 

Don't worry I have definitely given up trying to explain to you .

[jaapv]

Reading this thread, there are at least four potential customers for such a camera, so that is a solid base to start developing one  

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[lct]

26 minutes ago, jaapv said:

Reading this thread, there are at least four potential customers for such a camera, so that is a solid base to start developing one  

Economic reasons then if i understand well so no technical reasons? 

[SrMi]

Mike Evans reported much interest in an M with EVF among LSI members. Stefan Daniel said that the rangefinder concept will not change with M models but that Leica would consider building an EVF version of the M if there is enough interest.

How many would abandon a rangefinder M if an EVF-M were available?