Why I will not be getting a M11...

[neekon]

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4 minutes ago, Alistairm said:

Or it is a stunning new rangefinder with the best full frame sensor offered by Leica ever and many of the improvements that Leica has learned from its industry leading mirrorless experience with the Q and SL series cameras. It’s all horses for courses I suppose. It seems that mechanical shutters will eventually go the way of the dodo… this is an intermediate step. 

If it’s important to people, however, I see no reason not to release an MP that is more expensive and has the option to meter off the shutter… but I can understand completely why it wasn’t a priority for Leica to build what it considers to be an inferior and legacy functionality into the M11. 

Do not get my words misconstrued. The M11 is a technological step forward in almost every way over the previous M.  If they were really using what they learned from teh Q and SL, they would not have implemented the M11 shutter so poorly.   Does the SL2 have to open the shutter every time you turn it on?  No it does not.  While i agree that mechanical shutter will eventually go away, this is a poorly designed step.   
I will concede that this was inevitable, and i will concede that in action of the shutter when taking a photo might be as fast as my 5yr old M10 series camera.  All of that is possible.  
However, there is no reason, not a single one, that the shutter should have to open every time the camera is one.  If their intent was always to make the M11 the camera it is.  Why wouldnt you put the shutter mechanism from the SL2 into it or something similar.  Why would you take a huge step back with the way the camera starts up?  There is no reason for it, not a single one. 

1 minute ago, SrMi said:

We can only speculate how much better an M11 with the classic shutter would have been than the current version. IMO, not by much, but a different opinion is valid. There is no data to prove either way.
In my posts on this topic, I implicitly disagreed that because of the new shutter, the M10-R is a better camera than the M11. However, that may not have been clear.

You are right, we can only speculate.  There is no evidence, and there never will be taht the M11 with the classic metering wouldve been faster.  But it would not have been slower.  

I think i may not have been clear as well.  I do not believe the M10R is better than the M11.  I think the M11 is the better camera is virtually every way.  I just believe the M11 implemented their new shutter and metering mechanism poorly.   

[SrMi]

20 minutes ago, Edax said:

A Nikon D850 starts up instantaneously. Yes, instantaneously. But that is considered outdated technology 🙃

Nikon D850 is still one of the best, if not the best camera out there. 0.2 sec startup. The knowledge to build camera like that is getting lost :(.

[Edax]

8 minutes ago, SrMi said:

We can only speculate how much better an M11 with the classic shutter would have been than the current version. IMO, not by much, but a different opinion is valid. There is no data to prove either way.
In my posts on this topic, I implicitly disagreed that because of the new shutter, the M10-R is a better camera than the M11. However, that may not have been clear.

There is no technical reason why it could not have been instantaneous. If DSLR's can/could do it, then a classical rangefinder also can do it.

[Tailwagger]

1 minute ago, neekon said:

However, there is no reason, not a single one, that the shutter should have to open every time the camera is one. 

I can think of at least one. Dust on the sensor. Closing the shutter at camera off helps in that regard. Personally, I find the SL2 to be a utter train wreck in terms of dust accumulation. 

[neekon]

Just now, Tailwagger said:

I can think of at least one. Dust on the sensor. Closing the shutter at camera off helps in that regard. Personally, I find the SL2 to be a utter train wreck in terms of dust accumulation. 

virtually every other mirrorless system has an exposed sensor.  Think the SL2 is bad, try cleaning a GFX100s sensor.  

Canon is the only company that does it on all their cameras.  i have to go back and remember if the R5 had the shutter open on startup or not.  Nikon does it on teh Z9 only i believe, although its a protective shutter, so it is more durable than a normal shutter

[pippy]

31 minutes ago, steve 1959 said:

I got my M262 just in time...

Funnily enough I was discussing the M 262 just a few hours ago and saying that it is the digi-M which I would buy if I ever decide to look for a colour version with a rear screen. Perhaps the search will start sooner rather than later as I doubt I will be the only one who thinks this way......

Philip.

[Tailwagger]

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2 minutes ago, Edax said:

There is no technical reason why it could not have been instantaneous. If DSLR's can/could do it, then a classical rangefinder also can do it.

Perhaps, but do you want a 850 sized body and battery?  If a Ferrari 812 has a V-12 in it and does 0-60 in under 3 secs, why can't my Corolla? 

[hdmesa]

My Canon R5 startup is less than one second, which includes opening the shutter.

I wonder at what shutter speed the M11 shutter is opening. They may have it opening at 1/30 sec. when it could open at 1/4000 sec, IDK, causing a delay that could be shortened.

The M11 slow startup – or at least the clunk – could be avoided if Leica adds the option in firmware to not have the shutter close at shutdown. This is done solely to protect the sensor against dust, but it's not necessary. At least giving the option would solve this for everyone. I would choose to let the shutter close at shutdown because dust is already a big problem with the M sensors since the cover glass is so thin and there is no anti-dust shake mechanism for cleaning the sensor, either at every shutdown or manually in the menu.

 

Edited January 14, 2022 by hdmesa

[Oswalt]

The bottom also doesn't appear to come off, or at least as easily as prior Ms. This is rather useful if you need to make any adjustments to the RF. 

[SrMi]

6 minutes ago, Edax said:

There is no technical reason why it could not have been instantaneous. If DSLR's can/could do it, then a classical rangefinder also can do it.

On the other hand, no other digital M has an instantaneous start-up, AFAIK. I would rather M11 had an almost instantaneous wake-up from standby. Many mirrorless cameras have that.

[Edax]

1 minute ago, Tailwagger said:

Perhaps, but do you want a 850 sized body and battery?  If a Ferrari 812 has a V-12 in it and does 0-60 in under 3 secs, why can't my Corolla? 

The 1900mAh battery in my D850 looks smaller than that ugly-shaped 1800mAh battery in the M11. 😇

[hdmesa]

5 minutes ago, neekon said:

virtually every other mirrorless system has an exposed sensor.  Think the SL2 is bad, try cleaning a GFX100s sensor...

What did you do to your GFX sensor, sneeze on it or something? 🤣 Since having the original 50S in 2017 until GFX 100S in 2022, I have never had to wet clean a GFX sensor – just a quick puff of a blower bulb twice in four years. 

[neekon]

2 minutes ago, Tailwagger said:

Perhaps, but do you want a 850 sized body and battery?  If a Ferrari 812 has a V-12 in it and does 0-60 in under 3 secs, why can't my Corolla? 

oh come on, thats a false equivalency and you know it.  
The D850 battery is nearly identical to the M11 in terms of size, both are about 1800Mah.  
There is no reason the M11 with its state of the art processor couldn't be instant

[SrMi]

1 minute ago, Edax said:

The 1900mAh battery in my D850 looks smaller than that ugly-shaped 1800mAh battery in the M11. 😇

It look less ugly once you insert it into the camera :).

[Edax]

1 minute ago, SrMi said:

On the other hand, no other digital M has an instantaneous start-up, AFAIK. I would rather M11 had an almost instantaneous wake-up from standby. Many mirrorless cameras have that.

The M11 should have been the first one with near instantaneous startup and wakeup. What a pity.

[Edax]

1 minute ago, SrMi said:

It look less ugly once you insert it into the camera :).

There is no place for the spare in the camera 😂

[SrMi]

Just now, Edax said:

There is no place for the spare in the camera 😂

You don't need a spare 🤣. And you cannot buy it anyway ;-).

[neekon]

12 minutes ago, hdmesa said:

My Canon R5 startup is less than one second, which includes opening the shutter.

I wonder at what shutter speed the M11 shutter is opening. They may have it opening at 1/30 sec. when it could open at 1/4000 sec, IDK, causing a delay that could be shortened.

The M11 slow startup – or at least the clunk – could be avoided if Leica adds the option in firmware to not have the shutter close at shutdown. This is done solely to protect the sensor against dust, but it's not necessary. At least giving the option would solve this for everyone. I would choose to let the shutter close at shutdown because dust is already a big problem with the M sensors since the cover glass is so thin and there is no anti-dust shake mechanism for cleaning the sensor, either at every shutdown or manually in the menu.

 

I had forgotten that the R5 had the shutter open on startup.  It mustve been so fast it never bothered me. 

You are right, there is no reason the shutter opening on startup cant be either sped up, or just left open on shutdown.  

11 minutes ago, Oswalt said:

The bottom also doesn't appear to come off, or at least as easily as prior Ms. This is rather useful if you need to make any adjustments to the RF. 

The bottom plate shouldve been removed a couple of generations ago. Maybe the M240.

8 minutes ago, hdmesa said:

What did you do to your GFX sensor, sneeze on it or something? 🤣 Since having the original 50S in 2017 until GFX 100S in 2022, I have never had to wet clean a GFX sensor – just a quick puff of a blower bulb twice in four years. 

I like to just pour sand in it occasionally. 

Edited January 14, 2022 by neekon
spelling

[hdmesa]

7 minutes ago, neekon said:

I had forgotten that the R5 had the shutter open on startup.  It mustve been so fast it never bothered me. 

You are right, there is no reason the shutter opening on startup cant be either sped up, or just left open on shutdown.  

...

Yes, so this should be an easy firmware fix to have the option to leave the shutter open at shutdown so it's open already at startup. They should also add an option to the sensor cleaning menu option to include an option to close it, too. That way for those that want the shutter to remain open at shutdown, they could still close the shutter manually to change lenses in the field and not have to worry about dust on the sensor.

The R5 shutter is super fast. I think it's simply opening at 1/8000 of a second versus whatever the M11 is set to open at. The R5 power-off closes the shutter very slowly though, sounds like 1/30 sec. I think this is what Leica needs to do – not worry about shutter wear on startup and change the opening speed to 1/4000 sec. and then have the closing speed be as slow as is reasonable.

Edited January 14, 2022 by hdmesa
clarity adjustment :)

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[Reciprocity]

2 hours ago, CGarrard said:

It has been. And you don't need to use it for a while to understand the technical aspects of its design. Everyone who has used it has experienced this because it's a design implementation.

Are you understanding the issue here? 

The camera just came out, you can not even go as far as to say that beta testers who have had it for 3-6 months are the full representation of the user experience writ large.

I have used every major iteration of the M digital bodies since the M8 and while the traditional metering can be gotten used to, when using it on assignments in tandem with cameras that have pattern metering, it can really be a pain in the ass. The slightest patch of white sky in the center 60% of the frame sends it into fits of underexposure while it's DSLR or mirrorless counterparts deal with it fine. 

I'm skeptical of the long term reliability of the new shutter mechanism but I sure as hell welcome 21st century metering to the M, the old one has been a long standing complaint of pros using digital M's when it comes down to getting the shots in the bag. The sound is a big deal to me, your much loved 240 was nice and soft in that regard but my hand got cramps after long assignments in dealing with the overly thick body. The M10-P I now own solved that greatly and with an even quieter shutter sound and better high ISO range to boot. 

And I think that is the point of personal choice here now. Leica has had digital M's out for long enough that everyone usually has a favorite at this point, mine thus far is the M10-P. I suspect the M10-R would improve on it a bit but I am a guy who just like to make as good a photo as I can so I get gear that works and get on with it. 

I'll likely try out an M11 in the near future, but at $9K, I give brand new Leica gear a hard pass these days so I would still need to wait to get one.