Unveiling M11?

[Chun Chang]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

On 12/17/2021 at 6:49 AM, fotografr said:

Maybe we should just skip straight to the M13. I wonder if Leica will make an M13, or of they'll follow the lead of hotels that don't have a 13th floor? 

Unlucky number!  M12 mk II

[Advertisement]

The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[Mikep996]

its more likely they will use a different name for the M14 for the asian market

Good point. Also, for the American market the M15 would not be well received.

 

Forgive my ignorance - I don't understand either of those...???

[overexposed]

32 minutes ago, Mikep996 said:

its more likely they will use a different name for the M14 for the asian market

Good point. Also, for the American market the M15 would not be well received.

 

Forgive my ignorance - I don't understand either of those...???

in asia, especially in china, the number 4 is closely associated with death, the pronunciation would be the same for a westerners ear.

M15 i also dont get

[evikne]

I understand why Leica in 2012 just wanted to call all their M models “M”. 😄

Edited December 20, 2021 by evikne

[SrMi]

1 hour ago, Artin said:

does that mean that the M4 would be dirt cheep in China ? 

And M8 horribly expensive, since 8 is a very lucky number in China.

[TomB_tx]

Perhaps thinking that “M15” combines the impression of “AR15” - a popular “Modern Sporting Rifle” in the US, with “M16” - a military rifle in use from the 1960s to current times.

[MikeMyers]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

On 12/16/2021 at 9:21 PM, SrMi said:

If the camera is set at ISO 100 but exposes at actual ISO 64, it does not mean that the image will be darker than the ISO 100 image shot with another camera. 

 

The camera processes the data that is read from the sensor before it writes it to the card. The processing can include:

• Lifting shadows and mid-tones.
• Adding an S curve to the highlights.
• Instructing raw converters to apply Baseline Exposure Compensation. 
• etc

One quick question - can this be turned off, so the camera just exposes the image based on the settings selected by the photographer?

I'm scared now to ask - does my M10 do this now?

This is a slippery slope, and it can lead to this:  How cameras "improve" our photography

[SrMi]

11 minutes ago, MikeMyers said:

One quick question - can this be turned off, so the camera just exposes the image based on the settings selected by the photographer?

I'm scared now to ask - does my M10 do this now?

This is a slippery slope, and it can lead to this:  How cameras "improve" our photography

The core modifications cannot be turned off, and differ by manufacturer. However, the core transformations are very subtle and not comparable to the heavy changes applied to JPEGs and HEICs.
All cameras expose the image based on the settings selected by the photographer. However, there are differences in raw output from different camera manufacturers,
In addition, all post-processing tools apply their modification to the raw data, even if you reset all settings.

[MikeMyers]

9 hours ago, SrMi said:

The core modifications cannot be turned off, and differ by manufacturer. However, the core transformations are very subtle and not comparable to the heavy changes applied to JPEGs and HEICs.
All cameras expose the image based on the settings selected by the photographer. However, there are differences in raw output from different camera manufacturers,
In addition, all post-processing tools apply their modification to the raw data, even if you reset all settings.

I thought I read up above that ISO speed on the Leica doesn't "play nice" in its part of the exposure triangle.  

Change the  shutter speed, and the exposure changes as expected.  Change the aperture, ditto.  Maybe I mis-understood, but I though I was reading how ISO is different, and may not change as expected.  I thought it was just like ASA in film, and had the same effect on exposure.

As to the "core modifications", which can't be turned off, what are they, and what do they do?

It's a "yes" or "no" question, but does Leica processing change the data captured by the camera sensor?  Subtle isn't a good answer.  Either Leica's DNG image is a record of what the sensor captured, or isn't.  

......not that it will matter, as I'll continue to shoot my Leica, Nikon, and Fuji cameras, but I'd still like to know.

[LocalHero1953]

30 minutes ago, MikeMyers said:

It's a "yes" or "no" question, but does Leica processing change the data captured by the camera sensor?  Subtle isn't a good answer.  Either Leica's DNG image is a record of what the sensor captured, or isn't.

What is 'what the sensor captured'? A count of photons in each pixel? An electric charge for each pixel? Lightroom wouldn't know what to do with those. Leica (and every camera manufacturer) HAS to process the data in order to create a JPG or DNG. Fundamentally it's a calibration: response X from the pixel (i.e. the sensory element) means data value nX in the DNG, where n is the manufacturer's calibration factor*. What is the correct value of 'n' which means that Leica has done no processing?

 

* a gross oversimplification!

Edited December 21, 2021 by LocalHero1953

[MikeMyers]

From Wikipedia:

"A camera raw image file contains minimally processed data from the image sensor of either a digital camera, a motion picture film scanner, or other image scanner.^[1][2] Raw files are named so because they are not yet processed and therefore are not ready to be printed or edited with a bitmap graphics editor. Normally, the image is processed by a raw converter in a wide-gamutinternal color space where precise adjustments can be made before conversion to a "positive" file format such as TIFF or JPEG for storage, printing, or further manipulation. There are dozens of raw formats in use by different manufacturers of digital image capture equipment."

[MikeMyers]

42 minutes ago, MikeMyers said:

The core modifications cannot be turned off, and differ by manufacturer.

The above (quoting SrMi) is what I'm asking about.

I'm trying to find out what the Leica changes when it creates a "raw file".

Edited December 21, 2021 by MikeMyers
adding the correct person who wrote what I quoted

[Adam Bonn]

The things that camera OEMs and RAW software OEMs do ‘behind the scenes’ will be proprietary 

A sensor has only one ‘native’ ISO (with all other settings being a pull or a push) but to achieve that native ISO a sensor may very well already (almost certainly in fact!) be in a state of amplification 

FWIW… Leica historically don’t seem to put that much effort into behind the scenes stuff… The M9 for example uses a DNG tag that tells the RAW software that it has an anti-aliasing filter (!!!), some RAW software can’t read the aperture value from the DNG, because Leica place it in maker notes rather than use the correct location, until the M10 AFAIK, there wasn’t even even a tag to tell LR to apply NR (good!)

If you move away from DNG centric applications (say C1) it ignores a lot of the stuff in the DNG and does what it wants any way

I’m afraid we’re given what we’re given and have to make it work for us… for example the (frankly crazy) inability to set the M10 to a true (sic) base ISO

IMHO as much as the MxD range and the monochrom range is good for purists, a camera that has no SOOC jpeg might help declutter the behind the scenes stuff a little… 

[rramesh]

So the French get the first peak?

https://leicarumors.com/2021/12/20/leica-m11-what-makes-a-legend-event-scheduled-in-france-for-january-7th.aspx/

Edited December 21, 2021 by rramesh

[frame-it]

2 hours ago, MikeMyers said:

As to the "core modifications", which can't be turned off, what are they, and what do they do?

It's a "yes" or "no" question, but does Leica processing change the data captured by the camera sensor?  Subtle isn't a good answer.  Either Leica's DNG image is a record of what the sensor captured, or isn't.  

probably color adjustments for reds, skin tones etc etc and adjustments for vignetting and lens distortion.

[Herr Barnack]

4 minutes ago, rramesh said:

So the French get the first peak?

https://leicarumors.com/2021/12/20/leica-m11-what-makes-a-legend-event-scheduled-in-france-for-january-7th.aspx/

Why France and why January 7?  Makes no sense. 

I am wondering if maybe the Leica rumor mongers got the date wrong.

[jdlaing]

1 hour ago, MikeMyers said:

From Wikipedia:

"A camera raw image file contains minimally processed data from the image sensor of either a digital camera, a motion picture film scanner, or other image scanner.^[1][2] Raw files are named so because they are not yet processed and therefore are not ready to be printed or edited with a bitmap graphics editor. Normally, the image is processed by a raw converter in a wide-gamutinternal color space where precise adjustments can be made before conversion to a "positive" file format such as TIFF or JPEG for storage, printing, or further manipulation. There are dozens of raw formats in use by different manufacturers of digital image capture equipment."

A RAW file is the data produced by the sensor that are basically ones and zeros. That file is then sent to the image engine that produces either a .dng or a .jpeg image. Both .dng and .jpeg files are processed files. Different manufacturers use different file formats. Leica uses .dng. The information on what happens once a raw file is processed is proprietary and Leica is not going to divulge that information. The .dng file, as in Leica’s case, or any other manufacturers case is not what the sensor sees. It is what the image engine’s engineers tell you the sensor saw. 

[evikne]

3 minutes ago, Herr Barnack said:

Why France and why January 7?  Makes no sense. 

I heard some rumors that @Steven has bought the company. 😄

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[Alberti]

On 12/18/2021 at 4:04 AM, fotografr said:

Good point. Also, for the American market the M15 would not be well received.

In England they will love the stealth version of the M16

[SrMi]

2 hours ago, MikeMyers said:

I thought I read up above that ISO speed on the Leica doesn't "play nice" in its part of the exposure triangle.  

Change the  shutter speed, and the exposure changes as expected.  Change the aperture, ditto.  Maybe I mis-understood, but I though I was reading how ISO is different, and may not change as expected.  I thought it was just like ASA in film, and had the same effect on exposure.

I never heard that ISO settings "doesn't play nice" on Leica. Could you point me to the post or link that mentions it?

2 hours ago, MikeMyers said:

As to the "core modifications", which can't be turned off, what are they, and what do they do?

It's a "yes" or "no" question, but does Leica processing change the data captured by the camera sensor?  Subtle isn't a good answer.  Either Leica's DNG image is a record of what the sensor captured, or isn't.  

......not that it will matter, as I'll continue to shoot my Leica, Nikon, and Fuji cameras, but I'd still like to know.

The 'core modifications' are each camera manufacturer's proprietary information. We do not know what they exactly do. No raw file, by any camera, is a 1:1 representation of what the sensor recorded, and everybody does it a bit differently. Several camera manufacturers use the same sensor (Sony), but their toppings and raw processing differ considerably. Some manufacturers (Canon, Pentax) even apply mandatory noise reduction to the raw files.