OhOh, future of CL?

[Le Chef]

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It is possible to get smallish FF bodies - see Panasonic S5 and Sony Alphabet Soup Series, but you are still left with lenses that when compared with APSC equivalents are significantly larger and heavier. The simple physics/optics would seem to dictate that rule.

Since it “appears” the CL line maybe done I did some reading on other fora to check out alternatives and one of the consistent criticisms of the FF manufacturers is the weight of the cameras and lenses. If that’s the case it would imply there’s still a valid market space for APSC systems in the market. What I would call the “Goldilocks” space in the market. Maybe it’s too much for Leica to afford to compete there, which would be a shame with a readymade line of lenses, but one can only hope that the likes of Fuji and Sony continue their APSC lines for those of us who want IQ without the weight.

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[lct]

22 minutes ago, Le Chef said:

It is possible to get smallish FF bodies - see Panasonic S5 and Sony Alphabet Soup Series, but you are still left with lenses that when compared with APSC equivalents are significantly larger and heavier. The simple physics/optics would seem to dictate that rule.

Unless you use crop lenses on it. I never checked myself but a TL lens should work as intended on any L-mount FF camera. I mean in crop mode of course so better choose a camera with high pixel count for that. 

Edited November 29, 2021 by lct

[Le Chef]

That would require the FF sensor to have at least 36MP and ideally 45MP+ that should be workable particularly if the body can weigh less than about 600g’s.

[SoCalLeicanator]

Q2 owner here.  Yes, I know the sensor/shutter/lens are integrated, but I can attest that it's a great size.  A CL successor with similar dimensions would be great with the 47MP sensor.

[RM8]

44 minutes ago, lct said:

Unless you use crop lenses on it. I never checked myself but a TL lens should work as intended on any L-mount FF camera. I mean in crop mode of course so better choose a camera with high pixel count for that. 

Don't quite understand "FF in crop mode"?

[adan]

14 minutes ago, Le Chef said:

It is possible to get smallish FF bodies - see Panasonic S5 and Sony Alphabet Soup Series, but you are still left with lenses that when compared with APSC equivalents are significantly larger and heavier. The simple physics/optics would seem to dictate that rule.

A bit of an oversimplification. After all, Leica's entire history is built around very good, very small "FF" lenses (originally for the rangefinder cameras - Barnack and M).

There are other factors besides physics and optics that "dictate" lens size. For example, Leica wanted a consistent size in the L lenses where possible, , and therefore the APO-35mm f/2.0 L is as large as the 50 or 75 f/2.0 L, for "system" reasons.

Didn't have to be - see the near-equal performance APO-35mm Summicron-M, or other very good (and even smaller) FF 35mm f/2.0 M lenses from the past (which take 36mm filters - compare to 52mm for the 23mm Summicron-TL ASPH f/2.0! )

Similarly the 50mm APO-Summicron-M is very compact. Much smaller than the 50mm L (or the 75mm APO-Summicrons L/M, which it would equate to on APSC) but still has FF coverage.

And as I mentioned earlier, Peter Karbe has stated that his goal for the "Next generation" of lens technologies is to reduce lens sizes while retaining IQ.

[IkarusJohn]

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M lenses are, of course, manual in all respects - M means manual …

[lct]

39 minutes ago, RM8 said:

Don't quite understand "FF in crop mode"?

When you put an APS-C L-mount lens on a FF L-mount camera, the latter does not use the whole FF sensor but just a crop of it corresponding to the APS-C format. Then the FF camera works in crop mode i.e. behaves like an APS-C camera. Or at least i assume so as i have no experience with FF L-mount cameras... 

[RM8]

5 minutes ago, lct said:

When you put an APS-C L-mount lens on a FF L-mount camera, the latter does not use the whole FF sensor but just a crop of it corresponding to the APS-C format. Then the FF camera works in crop mode i.e. behaves like an APS-C camera. Or at least i assume so as i have no experience with FF L-mount cameras... 

But an L-mount lens has to be 20mm from the sensor-- can't imagine "native" FF lenses to require an adapter on an FF camera

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[lct]

4 minutes ago, RM8 said:

But an L-mount lens has to be 20mm from the sensor-- can't imagine "native" FF lenses to require an adapter on an FF camera

AFAIK the register distance for L-mount lenses is 20mm so both L and TL lenses should have natively that same 20mm register distance i guess but i'm no techie at all.

[cpclee]

1 hour ago, adan said:

A bit of an oversimplification. After all, Leica's entire history is built around very good, very small "FF" lenses (originally for the rangefinder cameras - Barnack and M).

There are other factors besides physics and optics that "dictate" lens size. For example, Leica wanted a consistent size in the L lenses where possible, , and therefore the APO-35mm f/2.0 L is as large as the 50 or 75 f/2.0 L, for "system" reasons.

Didn't have to be - see the near-equal performance APO-35mm Summicron-M, or other very good (and even smaller) FF 35mm f/2.0 M lenses from the past (which take 36mm filters - compare to 52mm for the 23mm Summicron-TL ASPH f/2.0! )

Similarly the 50mm APO-Summicron-M is very compact. Much smaller than the 50mm L (or the 75mm APO-Summicrons L/M, which it would equate to on APSC) but still has FF coverage.

And as I mentioned earlier, Peter Karbe has stated that his goal for the "Next generation" of lens technologies is to reduce lens sizes while retaining IQ.

The APO 35mm Summicron-M more than just equaled the 23mm Summicron-TL---it has equaled the 35 Summicron-SL.  That might have been what has given Peter Karbe hope that they can now begin an effort to reduce lens sizes while maintaining image quality.  In this interview I saw he did make it sound like it will be a multi-decade effort.  

[lct]

1 hour ago, Le Chef said:

That would require the FF sensor to have at least 36MP and ideally 45MP+ that should be workable particularly if the body can weigh less than about 600g’s.

Reason why the Sigma fp L's sensor has 60 (or 61?) MP i guess.

[robgo2]

13 hours ago, Le Chef said:

It is possible to get smallish FF bodies - see Panasonic S5 and Sony Alphabet Soup Series, but you are still left with lenses that when compared with APSC equivalents are significantly larger and heavier. The simple physics/optics would seem to dictate that rule.

Since it “appears” the CL line maybe done I did some reading on other fora to check out alternatives and one of the consistent criticisms of the FF manufacturers is the weight of the cameras and lenses. If that’s the case it would imply there’s still a valid market space for APSC systems in the market. What I would call the “Goldilocks” space in the market. Maybe it’s too much for Leica to afford to compete there, which would be a shame with a readymade line of lenses, but one can only hope that the likes of Fuji and Sony continue their APSC lines for those of us who want IQ without the weight.

I agree about the CL sitting in the “Goldilocks” space. Here’s a thought. If Leica designed a CL2 and priced it at under $2500, I think it would sell very well. Yes, the profit for each camera would be less, but higher sales volume would make up the difference or even exceed it. And just as importantly, the demand for Leica TL lenses would grow. 

[nicci78]

Considering chip shortage issue. It is not possible for Leica to produce enough volume right now. 
That’s why they rather made high margin 24x36 cameras with the chips available instead of low margin APS—C. 
So be patient. CL2 will come when all Leica will be able to produce it en masse. 
 

Have you noticed that no manufacturers have updated substantially their APS-C camera in the last 18 months ? 
Fuji updated some screen or minor stuffs. 
Ricoh introduced the same GR III with a different lens 

No new sensor since 2018 with 26MP BSI  

Worst the majority of players just stayed with old 24MP FSI because newer 26MP variant is no better… 

Edited November 30, 2021 by nicci78

[Le Chef]

Fuji is apparently readying the launch of a new XH-2 in the Spring that would have a new APSC sensor design and “up to” 40MP. The rest of the models would gradually shift to the new sensor over time.

[Louis]

5 minutes ago, Le Chef said:

Fuji is apparently readying the launch of a new XH-2 in the Spring that would have a new APSC sensor design and “up to” 40MP. The rest of the models would gradually shift to the new sensor over time.

I also wish they had a L compatible mount!

[dkCambridgeshire]

6 hours ago, nicci78 said:

Considering chip shortage issue. It is not possible for Leica to produce enough volume right now. 
That’s why they rather made high margin 24x36 cameras with the chips available instead of low margin APS—C. 
So be patient. CL2 will come when all Leica will be able to produce it en masse. 
 

Have you noticed that no manufacturers have updated substantially their APS-C camera in the last 18 months ? 
Fuji updated some screen or minor stuffs. 
Ricoh introduced the same GR III with a different lens 

No new sensor since 2018 with 26MP BSI  

Worst the majority of players just stayed with old 24MP FSI because newer 26MP variant is no better… 

You and others are underestimating the amount of work involved in designing / testing / manufacturing /marketing a new digital ICL camera ... Two to three years required ..and has to have a degree  of 'future proofing' to ensure it does not fall flat after a few months ... And bear in mind much of the design/specification relies on third party input. 

[Simone_DF]

15 minutes ago, dkCambridgeshire said:

You and others are underestimating the amount of work involved in designing / testing / manufacturing /marketing a new digital ICL camera ... Two to three years required ..and has to have a degree  of 'future proofing' to ensure it does not fall flat after a few months ... And bear in mind much of the design/specification relies on third party input. 

Leica is considerably slower than other companies. Make it 3 to 4 years from now. Good luck trying to keep the current CL alive until 2025. 

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[robgo2]

55 minutes ago, Simone_DF said:

Leica is considerably slower than other companies. Make it 3 to 4 years from now. Good luck trying to keep the current CL alive until 2025. 

It is quite possible that Leica has already completed much of the design and testing for a CL2 but had to hit the “pause” button due to the pandemic and subsequent supply chain shortages. Also, as for myself as a fairly low volume shooter, my CL should last until 2025. The bigger question is whether I will last that long. 😶 

My earlier point about setting a lower price point for a CL2, so as to increase sales volume and keep the APS-C format viable, is worth considering, but as we all know, Leica maintains its prestige image in part by setting prices ridiculously high. How many of us would be willing to pay $3600 for a CL2? I am not optimistic that they will change a business model that seems to be working. Perhaps Sigma will carry the mantle with “Leica-like” APS-C cameras.

Edited November 30, 2021 by robgo2

[Kim Dahl]

This talk just goes in circles.  This is GOOD because we are many who love CL / TL2 and we need to tell 🙃 

BUT - Leica - what we just want to know is: “Continues apsc at Leica?”  
“Will  Leica - in the future - come up with news for the system?”  

yes or no ? - very simple question.  
 

If Leica makes a professional APSC camera - CL2 - then it is not the price that will scare me.  I just want a small camera with Leica lenses.  Preferably the same quality as the SL2 🙏🏻🙏🏻