M film failures - most reliable for a user camera

[KFo]

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I'm looking at getting a film M to play with.  While it seems to me that the M system is pretty robust, is there a particular film M to avoid  because of consistent issues?

My needs are:

-Must be M mount, NOT screw mount.

-Meter is nice but not essential.

-TTL flash is not needed.

-Price is not a big deal, from what I see, I can afford a hardly used condition user class camera, although well used inspires more confidence. 

What is the common wisdom here?  Just buy the most recent model, like a MA or MP, or step back a few years?

Thanks!

[a.noctilux]

As I read here and there, some new M-A/MP has flaws from new (not all of them happily).

So my advice is reliable M-A from reputable dealer may be my (now) first choice, as I've done some years ago with two new M-A to replace all of my old Ms.

I still have some reliable (but less use ! ) Ms : M4/M4-2/M4-P/M5/M6 etc. which I may use for years to come without fear.

So any of those would do what you want.

Take one, be happy or not, then choose another one if not happy.

 

Leica film M for life is a myth to be killed.

[frame-it]

M4 or M4-P

[jankap]

1 hour ago, a.noctilux said:

Leica film M for life is a myth to be killed.

Somewhat care is necessary now and then.

[a.noctilux]

12 minutes ago, jankap said:

Somewhat care is necessary now and then.

Of course,

talking about 'care' cost, the labor 'price' tent to be more and more expensive.

As we know, film M's care (CLA) needs sometimes as long as ten hours of tech. labor only ( so the last time was about 500€ for my M4, without replaced parts ).

 

M canadian made are very tough Ms.

Side note, my now M4-2, M4-P never went to be CLAed, they work as usual.

[earleygallery]

By the 'end' of this thread every M model will have been mentioned, as well as some non Leica M models as well!

Buy whatever suits you best - there isn't a lemon model as such, just some issues with certain models (separation in M3 and M2 finders, meter parts for M5's, etc).

Some do handle differently and of course there are viewfinder differences too. I would suggest visiting a few dealers and handling the different models to make your own mind up.

FWIW my choice of M is the M2.

[Danner]

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IMHO, the M6 (classic) is the daily-shooter of choice.

[Erato]

3 hours ago, KFo said:

I'm looking at getting a film M to play with.  While it seems to me that the M system is pretty robust, is there a particular film M to avoid  because of consistent issues?

My needs are:

-Must be M mount, NOT screw mount.

-Meter is nice but not essential.

-TTL flash is not needed.

-Price is not a big deal, from what I see, I can afford a hardly used condition user class camera, although well used inspires more confidence. 

What is the common wisdom here?  Just buy the most recent model, like a MA or MP, or step back a few years?

Thanks!

As a new leave of MPs, I'd like to share my research in the past two years with you. I hope that my 2 cents works for you. 
IMHO, "Mechanik in Perfektion" could be a great idea if you're looking for an MP from the latest batch and it's relatively reliable.
M4 and M-A are great, but you'd need an external light meter such as Gossen Digisix 2 or so. If you're very experienced with "Sunny 16" that would be a plus.
M5/M6 is great too, but I won't take the risk for the used item. Unless I can do hands-on it and make sure it's 100% risk-free.
M3 is pristine and remarkable. Sooner or later, I'll get one as a backup alongside my M10M and M10-P since I like wide-angle lenses pretty much.

BTW, the local Leica Store called and confirmed that my new order of MP 0.72  black paint shipped out already, and it's on the way to me. ETA in a few weeks.

[AndreasG]

For more than 30 years I have a M4-P and two M6 bodies in use, they never required any service, though the M4-P now shows a little fog in the viewfinder window. Definitely very reliable cameras.

[LocalHero1953]

You may want to indicate or decide what focal lengths you would use. Depending on the model, 28, 35, and 135 may not be practical, and 75 may be inconvenient.

[KFo]

21 minutes ago, earleygallery said:

By the 'end' of this thread every M model will have been mentioned, as well as some non Leica M models as well!

Buy whatever suits you best - there isn't a lemon model as such, just some issues with certain models (separation in M3 and M2 finders, meter parts for M5's, etc).

Some do handle differently and of course there are viewfinder differences too. I would suggest visiting a few dealers and handling the different models to make your own mind up.

FWIW my choice of M is the M2.

Yeah, I was hopping just to avoid something like the M9 sensor debacle.

I didn’t list it, but I’ll want a .73 finder - I shot 28 more often than anything else and very rarely 90.

[ianman]

27 minutes ago, KFo said:

I shot 28 more often than anything else

In that case it’s anything from the M4-P onward as that was the first to get 28mm framelines. I have one and use it with the 28mm Summaron and it’s fine. For the viewfinder I guess you mean 0.72 magnification, I don’t think there is a 0.73 on a film M. You may need a magnifier attached for use with a 90mm. I have one (a magnifier) but rarely use it tbh.

As James wrote, all models are fine. Your preferred FL has made a first selection, the rest just depends on the features you want. And I can pretty much guarantee that you’ll not suffer an M9 sensor debacle with any of them!

Edited October 22, 2021 by ianman

[Kriehuber]

29 minutes ago, KFo said:

Yeah, I was hopping just to avoid something like the M9 sensor debacle.

I didn’t list it, but I’ll want a .73 finder - I shot 28 more often than anything else and very rarely 90.

I use mostly 0.58 finders. But I also shoot 28mm 99% of the time and I really like to have a NICE external finder always attached to the camera. I switch between the finder and rangefinder pretty often depending on the situation. 

[TomB_tx]

I disagree that a magnifier is needed for a 90 with a .72 finder - especially on film. I've used .72 finders since 1968, and 90 2.8 TE was my first lens. I've used 90 f2.5-2.8 ever since, and 135 f4 as well with no problems. Now a 90 f1.5 could be more challenging (at f1.5-2.0), as it's the combination of F.L. & aperture that affects usability with an RF.

[ianman]

21 minutes ago, TomB_tx said:

 

I disagree that a magnifier is needed for a 90 with a .72 finder

Nobody said it was.

Edited October 22, 2021 by ianman

[nitroplait]

It is always fun to spend other peoples money, if only in our minds, but really; "price not a big deal"! Then why don't you just buy whatever appeals to you, according to your lack of requirements - any M camera would do, and sell it if it wasn't what you expected?

[a.noctilux]

13 minutes ago, nitroplait said:

It is always fun to spend other peoples money, if only in our minds, but really; "price not a big deal"! Then why don't you just buy whatever appeals to you, according to your lack of requirements - any M camera would do, and sell it if it wasn't what you expected?

My post #2 😉

 

discussion closed

 or NOT

[KFo]

25 minutes ago, nitroplait said:

It is always fun to spend other peoples money, if only in our minds, but really; "price not a big deal"! Then why don't you just buy whatever appeals to you, according to your lack of requirements - any M camera would do, and sell it if it wasn't what you expected?

I guess I could do that but it's not how I do things.  I don't mind spending the money ONCE to get an unflawed camera but I'm not the Leica guy that buys and sells.  I'm the Leica guy that buys, uses, and keeps.  

These are $2000-5000 toys. 

I was just trying avoid a M9-like debacle. Sheesh.

[a.noctilux]

Now that I know better your requirements, some more suggestions :

 - as I said, new M-A or MP would be the best buy, even if some reported some flaws, but two years of peace of mind,

even more as my experiences that Leica took care of pass-warrantee M without fee

 - then second choice would be a good shape M4-P or M4-2, these are reliable as my decades old experiences

 - third choice, ... other choice can be good if you send for CLA after purchase

 

 - for 28mm use, I'm happy with 0.72 M as we all know that precise framing is not "available" (😇) in M system

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[ianman]

1 hour ago, KFo said:

I guess I could do that but it's not how I do things.  I don't mind spending the money ONCE to get an unflawed camera but I'm not the Leica guy that buys and sells.  I'm the Leica guy that buys, uses, and keeps.  

These are $2000-5000 toys. 

I was just trying avoid a M9-like debacle. Sheesh.

No need to be like that. I understand why @nitroplait wrote that. You asked for advice giving very few details of what you want. Anyway...

The 28mm (and 75mm just for info) framelines were first included on the M4-P. I believe all later M's have the same. But we can put all the older models aside. I'll also leave out the M5 for the simple reason that I don't know much about it, so maybe someone else can chip in for that one.

You mention that you don't care about a lightmeter so presumably you also don't care aperture priority mode. But if you decide you do need aperture priority then you'll want an M7. Do you want a fully mechanical camera? Then it's the M4-P, M4-2 or M-A.

If you go for an M6 or M7 be aware that the electronics are getting old and I believe (could be wrong) some M6 lightmeter parts are not replacable.

Do you want the faster rewind knob first introduced on the M4 (I think) or the M3 type?

Is the finish important to you? If you want a black paint then a new MP would probably be a good idea as some models aren't available with that finish. There are some "à la carte" M7 and MPs around that have different finishes (knobs colours, rewind types, leather colour & texture, etc could all be chosen).

Are you prepared to wait? Be aware that buying a new film Leica can take a long time.

With little input from you it's difficult to offer precise advice. As for M9 like issue, if there were any I think we would have heard about them by now. There are a number of buyers reporting issues with new MP and M-A models, but as has been said before, on a forum you'll always get more people writing in about problems than people writing about not having problems.

Not very helpful but I went for a new MP because I prefer to have a built-in lightmeter, like you I often use a 28mm lens and I'm a sucker for the black paint finish... and the stars aligned enabling me to get one without waiting as Red Dot Cameras had one in stock when I called.

Edit: I forgot to mention anything about viewfinders. You can get flare in some of the older models. I have an M4-P and occasionally get VF flare. There is also the "clutter" to consider. Models with buit-in meters have indicators so are more cluttered and the framelines are interrupted. I believe the M-A VF is the brightest... but I'm not sure if it's brighter than the MP. Again, maybe someone in the know can chip in with better info.

Edited October 22, 2021 by ianman