My message to Leica AG in regards to CL!

[Michael Markey]

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If this is indeed true and Leica are dropping the CL we can only conclude that their interest lays solely in the M line .

The rest  of their offerings have  been rather half hearted and not thought through . 

What has happened to the S system for example .

 

 

 

Edited November 1, 2021 by Michael Markey

[dkCambridgeshire]

I gave up on the prospect of a CL2 last year when I realised an S1R could make very good use of my sole remaining TL lens i.e. the TL 11-23mm ... thus bought an ex demo S1R for £1600 and thoroughly enjoyed using same in both its 20.68mp APS-C and 47.3 mp FF modes ... and likely at almost half the cost of the so far fictitious / pie in the sky Leica CL2. If there was a CL2 in the pipeline it would have been in development for several years but don't forget that the CL was 'rushed out' to update and supersede the the TL2 which had fallen flat on its touch screen because it had no 'built-in' EVF. Maybe the CL is not capable of being 'upgraded' into a CL2? Perhaps Leica has something else 'APS-C' up its sleeve? But also face facts that 'proper camera' sales worldwide are in decline ... and Leica Camera AG maybe have enough on their plate trying to justify production of the M,  SL and S camera series ... without launching an 'expensive to design/develop/market' ICL APS-C successor. Likely all boils down to potential $€£sales ... which depend on potential demand ... and maybe the relatively few Leica APS-C enthusiasts do not justify a new IBIS APS-C ICL Leica camera. 

Edited November 1, 2021 by dkCambridgeshire

[graphlex]

Having tried out Super Resolution on a few of my old Olympus MFT files, I wonder if Leica might be having another look at that system. AI might give a boost to MFT.  

[Michael Markey]

21 minutes ago, dkCambridgeshire said:

I gave up on the prospect of a CL2 last year when I realised an S1R could make very good use of my sole remaining TL lens i.e. the TL 11-23mm ... thus bought an ex demo S1R for £1600 and thoroughly enjoyed using same in both its 20.68mp APS-C and 47.3 mp FF modes ... and likely at almost half the cost of the so far fictitious / pie in the sky Leica CL2. If there was a CL2 in the pipeline it would have been in development for several years but don't forget that the CL was 'rushed out' to update and supersede the the TL2 which had fallen flat on its touch screen because it had no 'built-in' EVF. Maybe the CL is not capable of being 'upgraded' into a CL2? Perhaps Leica has something else 'APS-C' up its sleeve? But also face facts that 'proper camera' sales worldwide are in decline ... and Leica Camera AG maybe have enough on their plate trying to justify production of the M,  SL and S camera series ... without launching an 'expensive to design/develop/market' ICL APS-C successor. Likely all boils down to potential $€£sales ... which depend on potential demand ... and maybe the relatively few Leica APS-C enthusiasts do not justify a new IBIS APS-C ICL Leica camera. 

Agreed ,

Apart from the M system I think everything else is speculative .

I don`t sense any commitment to the other lines .

Only the large players like Canon ,Sony and Nikon can keep up with the technology and eventually Leica will fall back to to core competencies ... RF`s

[Kim Dahl]

7 hours ago, dkCambridgeshire said:

I gave up on the prospect of a CL2 last year when I realised an S1R could make very good use of my sole remaining TL lens i.e. the TL 11-23mm ... thus bought an ex demo S1R for £1600 and thoroughly enjoyed using same in both its 20.68mp APS-C and 47.3 mp FF modes ... and likely at almost half the cost of the so far fictitious / pie in the sky Leica CL2. If there was a CL2 in the pipeline it would have been in development for several years but don't forget that the CL was 'rushed out' to update and supersede the the TL2 which had fallen flat on its touch screen because it had no 'built-in' EVF. Maybe the CL is not capable of being 'upgraded' into a CL2? Perhaps Leica has something else 'APS-C' up its sleeve? But also face facts that 'proper camera' sales worldwide are in decline ... and Leica Camera AG maybe have enough on their plate trying to justify production of the M,  SL and S camera series ... without launching an 'expensive to design/develop/market' ICL APS-C successor. Likely all boils down to potential $€£sales ... which depend on potential demand ... and maybe the relatively few Leica APS-C enthusiasts do not justify a new IBIS APS-C ICL Leica camera. 

A voice in me says you're right.  But I really hope not.  CL is a good little camera.  But there has to be money in it for Leica.  But I also think that if Leica does nothing to their APSC line then trust in the company decreases and they will have difficult to sell new develoment.   Other than M. I cross my fingers for CL

[LocalHero1953]

I agree with those who say that if there was no new camera in the CL/APS-C line then the CL in my hands would not stop working overnight, and would continue to take the same pictures it has done since I bought it at launch. But the CL is not my only camera, and I valued the fact that I could also use my SL: the scenarios for shooting and the resultant image quality were comparable at smaller reproductions - I print up to A3 without big differences between CL and SL. The reason for having both cameras is that the SL was weatherproof, had better EVF and video, longer battery life, was probably more rugged (though neither broke), and there was no equivalent to the 90-280SL. 

The SL2-S has changed that balance, with its far better performance (noise, colour) in low light and at high ISO. If I want to do drama rehearsals and other performances, I will take the SL2-S where the CL cannot go, even though the smaller size is ideal for that use. In those comparisons, I now find the CL files disappointing, and cannot use the two cameras interchangeably with regards to image quality.

I haven't tried a M10 except at launch, but from @jonoslack's review of the M10R, I get the impression that model made a similar big step up from the M10 in IQ (not just resolution) in low light - I expect the M11 to do the same.

What's the solution, if you want a small, light, high quality modern camera, of simple, easily controlled design, that can bear comparison with the latest sensor technology for IQ? I guess I could look at Fuji, but that means a new ecosystem of (non-Leica) lenses, and different species of sensor and raw conversion, which I would rather not get into. The other option is to get back into the M system: larger bodies, no zooms, certainly heavier systems, poor framing (definitely not WYSIWYG without the Heath Robinson EVF - it was always in my bag, never ready for use). And it would mean getting out of the single L-mount ecosystem (I sometimes put the L Summicrons on the CL), and into money for new lenses. Not a happy prospect whichever way things go. And the uncertainty leaves me less willing to cut Leica some slack as a small company when it falls down occasionally in other areas.  

 

Edit. I am not anti-M - I had the M9 and M240, and now have a M4, with a couple of lenses. It has its place, but it is not the same place as the CL.

Edited November 2, 2021 by LocalHero1953

[rob_w]

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8 hours ago, dkCambridgeshire said:

Leica Camera AG maybe have enough on their plate trying to justify production of the M,  SL and S camera series

I fear you are right.  As for the S system, I can only imagine the pain S owners have gone through when considering a similar abandonment, given their investment is multiples more than mine.  Not the proper forum to discuss, of course, but rationalising the product line may be a sensible response on Leica's part.

That said, Fuji and others seem to continue prospering with APS-C.

[nicci78]

17 hours ago, serhan said:

Hopefully it is not true:

https://leicarumors.com/2021/10/31/whats-next-for-leica-11.aspx/

John Görten:

"There will be definitively no new CL2! Leica does not see any future in APSc. These were the words from Stefan Daniel a few weeks ago in Wetzlar at a talk he gave."

Stupid hearsay. 
Leica will never publicly assess the death of a system. 
Just like they never announced the end of TL bodies firmware support. You just guess it because the last one was in October 2018 ! 
Whereas CL got the last one in July of this year : 2021 ! Why bother to support the CL if you will abandoned it soon ? 

[Michael Markey]

I just don`t think that they have a long term strategy for these cameras.

Their platforms are usually lifted from other manufacturers ,given a face lift and a few often ineffective software tweaks but nothing of real substance .

We been here before with the original CL and the R system .

Maybe its just a quick way to inject a bit of cash and keep the M lineup on the road.

I don`t see any real commitment , I mean why introduce AF cameras that don`t have phase detect.

It ludicrous especially when (so I`ve been told) it was Leica who developed the system and then passed the copyright to Minolta .

It all seems , shall we say half hearted .

They have something unique in the M system and perhaps they should concentrate on that .

Meanwhile Nikon have blown the doors off with their new Z9 .

 

[LocalHero1953]

1 hour ago, Michael Markey said:

Meanwhile Nikon have blown the doors off with their new Z9 .

No need to IMO. It is so heavy they could have just thrown the camera at the doors.

[Simone_DF]

23 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

No need to IMO. It is so heavy they could have just thrown the camera at the doors.

Yes, it's 1160 g (body only) and it has a built in grip. Definitely not for me.

A SL2 is 835g + 317g if we add the grip, for a total of 1152, but at least you can choose not to have the add on grip

[lct]

Could mean that Leica is preparing a compact mirrorless a la Sigma FP. Why bothering with APS-C cameras if a compact FF can do the same with a big sensor in crop mode? Would have an L mount to fit TL lenses too. Too bad for a mirrorless with M mount though. Just a guess...

[jonoslack]

2 minutes ago, lct said:

Could mean that Leica is preparing a compact mirrorless a la Sigma FP. Why bothering with APS-C cameras if a compact FF can do the same with a big sensor in crop mode? Would have an L mount to fit TL lenses too. Too bad for a mirrorless with M mount though. Just a guess...

Nice idea - I can see the argument for that - 

[Kim Dahl]

29 minutes ago, jonoslack said:

Nice idea - I can see the argument for that - 

I could see is BIG argument for that.  Just the censor is 47 ++ so it can use my TL lenses. (Ca +20MP)   The smal FF camera in the same quality as the SL2.  
I'm not going to buy 24-90 no matter how good it is.  But the small TL and M lenses.  So if it is an FF I could consider an SL summichrome 75 or 90 mm 😁🤞🏻🤞🏻🤞🏻

[LocalHero1953]

45 minutes ago, lct said:

Could mean that Leica is preparing a compact mirrorless a la Sigma FP. Why bothering with APS-C cameras if a compact FF can do the same with a big sensor in crop mode? Would have an L mount to fit TL lenses too. Too bad for a mirrorless with M mount though. Just a guess...

The Sigma has no mechanical shutter, and has problems with banding in some artificial lighting, and with fast moving object distortion. The Z9 gets over this (faster read-out), but whether the processing power and heat management can be adapted to a small body is another matter.

[lct]

27 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

The Sigma has no mechanical shutter, and has problems with banding in some artificial lighting, and with fast moving object distortion. The Z9 gets over this (faster read-out), but whether the processing power and heat management can be adapted to a small body is another matter.

Could a global shutter mode fix the issue? I have no idea but I'm in silent shutter mode most of the time on my A7r2 mod and i've yet to see banding and rolling shutter issues. Not that i like the idea of a jack of all trade sensor...

[Simone_DF]

1 hour ago, Kim Dahl said:

I could see is BIG argument for that.  Just the censor is 47 ++ so it can use my TL lenses. (Ca +20MP)   The smal FF camera in the same quality as the SL2.  
I'm not going to buy 24-90 no matter how good it is.  But the small TL and M lenses.  So if it is an FF I could consider an SL summichrome 75 or 90 mm 😁🤞🏻🤞🏻🤞🏻

But why use TL lenses on a full frame? If size is a concern, the newer Sigmas are not much bigger and you'll get full coverage of the sensor.

[LocalHero1953]

25 minutes ago, lct said:

Could a global shutter mode fix the issue? I have no idea but I'm in silent shutter mode most of the time on my A7r2 mod and i've yet to see banding and rolling shutter issues. Not that i like the idea of a jack of all trade sensor...

The Z9 either has a global shutter or is close to it - either way there is probably a lot pf processing going on - requiring processing power, battery capacity and heat management, all of which are easier to do in a larger body.

For what I shoot I rarely get rolling shutter effects, but I often get banding when shooting indoors, both with the Sigma fp and with the SL2-S in silent mode. 

Edited November 2, 2021 by LocalHero1953

[Kim Dahl]

14 minutes ago, Simone_DF said:

But why use TL lenses on a full frame? If size is a concern, the newer Sigmas are not much bigger and you'll get full coverage of the sensor.

If not Leica continues to develop apsc.  Then this is the alternative there is if I would like an updated camera.  That's right- this is a compromise.  
I want to use TL lenses because I have them.  But yeah, if leica stops APSC I feel a bit like I bought a cat in the bag.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica L-Mount

[dkCambridgeshire]

3 hours ago, Kim Dahl said:

If not Leica continues to develop apsc.  Then this is the alternative there is if I would like an updated camera.  That's right- this is a compromise.  
I want to use TL lenses because I have them.  But yeah, if leica stops APSC I feel a bit like I bought a cat in the bag.

 

5 hours ago, lct said:

Could mean that Leica is preparing a compact mirrorless a la Sigma FP. Why bothering with APS-C cameras if a compact FF can do the same with a big sensor in crop mode? Would have an L mount to fit TL lenses too. Too bad for a mirrorless with M mount though. Just a guess...

Leica unlikely to be considering an APS-C based on the FP ... FP does not have an in body EVF ... would be another glorified TL2 which was not so popular