Shooting in manual mode with a M10 capturing images as DNG.

[MikeMyers]

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Curious - when I've been shooting in raw mode with my M10, I've been using the histogram as a guide, and then trying to get the right ETTR.  I was told today that histograms are based on 'jpg' shooting, and ignore the additional latitude of shooting in raw.

My question - is the histogram in the M10 reliably showing information based on shooting 'raw' or 'jpg'?

My goal is to set the metering to spot metering, aiming the camera at perhaps the brightest part of the sky.  Knowing the camera will then try to make that look like a medium gray, I might deliberately over-expose by 1 2/3 stops.  

Is it acceptable on the M10 to use the histogram to avoid being too close to "clipping"?  Perhaps use the exposure compensation set to + 1 2/3, and then using the histogram for guidance?

 

........or, if there is a far better way to use ETTR on the M10, is there something written here about how to do so?

(If I've used the wrong words, please ignore what I wrote, and suggest the best way to do this with an M10.)

 

Added later - maybe ETTR isn't such a great idea?

https://www.macfilos.com/2019/06/03/keeping-over-exposure-under-control/

Edited October 4, 2021 by MikeMyers
left something out.

[John Ricard]

Once you have the approximate right exposure determined and you are in manual mode, you can just bracket the exposure by quickly varying your shutter speed from shot to shot.  Takes maybe a second and a half to complete the action, and when you are reviewing the images at home  you can keep the single image that has the desired exposure and delete the rest.  

[Jeff S]

The only Leica camera with a RAW histogram is the original M(9) Monochrom (it appears following a briefly displayed JPEG version).  All others are JPEG based.  
 

Jeff

 

[SrMi]

Apart from Phase One and the original Monochrom, all cameras use a JPG-based histogram, which is imprecise to detect sensor saturation (clipped highlights). Some use UniWB to make the JPG histogram almost represent raw data (the image will look greenish initially).
IMO, in digital photography, the clipped highlights are the worst. Post-processing software can sometimes reconstruct a clipped channel using data from non-clipped channels, but sometimes that fix can change the color.
I would not use spot-metering for ETTR, just the Live View histogram, and be a bit conservative to preserve highlights. However, as suggested, bracketing can help.
ETTR still makes sense, but it is not as crucial as it used to be when sensors were much noisier. As a result, I use it more with smaller (and noisier) sensors than with larger ones. 
ETTR can also mean that the image needs to be darkened, as its essential element is not to clip highlights.

[Ecar]

The histogram is useful but indicative. I tend to err on the side of caution and always underexpose by -0.3 to -0.7 to ensure the highlights are preserved.

Unless the original exposure was completely off, the M10 and (especially) M10M sensors offer quite a bit of latitude for shadow recovery in post.

Edited October 4, 2021 by Ecar

[PCPix]

Another thing to consider would be to set your clipping value lower. I think it’s set at 253 by default, I set mine at 250, however there is nothing to stop you going down to 240 (for example). 

I appreciate this is applicable only to the jpeg and makes no difference to the actual image, but it will allow you more breathing space by revealing the over exposure a little earlier, hopefully before the DNG file reaches a true 255. 

[pgk]

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The topic of metering, ETTR and clipping comes up with monotonous regularity. Firstly you need to decide what you are trying to achieve. Then (IMO) you need to determine how you are able to achieve this in a way that is as simple as possible. It is very easy to overthink exposure and achieving 'perfection' (whatever that is) is more often than not a very subjective process. Bottom line is that photography is not a numbers game ; its about results. Ad its also practical. Try differentideas and figure out the one that most yields an end result which satisfies you. Chasing precision and numbers won't necessarily do this.

[a.noctilux]

Yes exposure is ART and I don't rely on "perfect exposure" anymore.

The good thing with M10 is we can do many things to gain "perfect exposure for the purpose".

So no one secret receipt can do it all, we must adapt with experiences in each case.

Experimentations can gain mastering of the game.

 

Edited October 4, 2021 by a.noctilux

[PCPix]

27 minutes ago, pgk said:

Chasing precision and numbers won't necessarily do this.

Couldn’t agree more - however the clipping value is a precise number and you would need to set it to something (assuming you would like to change it). What that number is is totally irrelevant and once set to your preference would probably never be looked again (a bit like the treble and bass settings on your car hi-fi 😉

I wanted a little more headroom so dropped the clipping value slightly - the actual value isn’t important, but the way the camera shows me over exposure certainly is. 

[pgk]

24 minutes ago, PCPix said:

Couldn’t agree more - however the clipping value is a precise number and you would need to set it to something (assuming you would like to change it). What that number is is totally irrelevant and once set to your preference would probably never be looked again (a bit like the treble and bass settings on your car hi-fi 😉

I wanted a little more headroom so dropped the clipping value slightly - the actual value isn’t important, but the way the camera shows me over exposure certainly is. 

It depends. Which is of course why hard and fast rules are difficult (impossible) to set in photography. If a particular setting works for you then that's fine but for me, my variation in subject matter means that I never find any specific, do-it-all settings applicable. Each to their own though. Photography is a very broad church.

[MikeMyers]

Oops, I fell asleep at my keyboard.  Before anyone responded, I tried to post the following, but never got to save it:

Oops - I guess this thread can be deleted.  I didn't find it earlier, but this thread seems to have all the information I  wanted:

That discussion gave me much of the information I was looking for, and told me a lot of things I never knew until then about the M10 metering - such as if you're not using a Visoflex, even if you select "spot metering", the camera doesn't.  It also explained how the M10 exposure can be "overwhelmed" by a very bright spot such as a lightbulb in the middle of the image.  Also, @jaapvposted an image that shows the coverage of the meter, which isn't what I thought I was getting when I switched to spot metering, or tried to.

From what I've read above, I did get the answer to my question - the histogram in the M10 is based on 'jpg', not 'dng', and since I am shooting in raw, that histogram doesn't do what I hoped it would do.  I want to change from shooting in "Aperture Priority" mode to "Manual Mode", meaning that if I select an ISO and an aperture, I would like to use the meter in the M10 to help me with a setting for ETTR.  That was sort of the purpose of this thread, but it doesn't sound like the metering in my M10 can do that unless I attach the Visoflex so the metering will work as a "spot meter", and I can measure the brightest part of my scene (and knowing it will make that part of my image into an 18% gray, I would over-expose by 1 2/3 stops.  At least that was the plan. 

[Popee]

In my opinion histograms and colouring highlights red are ok but not great.

I’d just like the camera to tell me what percentage of my pixels are clipping. 5% no problem probably wouldn’t notice than on an image, 20% yeah that’s a lot of white space. 

[MikeMyers]

Is there a good article posted somewhere about the best way to use the M10 meter?  @jaapvposted an image of what parts of my "screen" are used in metering, and after reading that thread over and over, and watching a good YouTube video about this, I'm doing much better than before.  

In the menu I selected "center weighted" which I believe will apply to all photos I take, using the internal viewfinder, or "live-view" typically with the Visoflex.  I'm getting spoiled by having the histogram shown so clearly in the Visoflex - and between this and "focusing aids" my Visoflex stays on my camera much more than it ever did over the past two years.  As a side benefit, I like having the camera record my GPS data.  

(I'll probably be buying the new Visoflex as soon as it's available, regardless of what I may or may not do about the upcoming M11, if anything.)

@Al Brown - yes, I'm beginning to feel that way, but I'd like to read more about it anyway.

[jaapv]

Not just the M10. Basically all Leica M cameras since the M5 meter in the same way. Leica took care to mimic the film M metering on their digital cameras as much as possible, and there is really no difference in daily use. Günther Osterloh's "Leica M" gives very clear instructions, based on the M6, but still valid (and helpful hints for using the rangefinder too, BTW) The following video might be of use:

 

 

[jaapv]

I agree that there is some overthinking going on here.

[Michael Geschlecht]

51 minutes ago, jaapv said:

I agree that there is some overthinking going on here.

Hello Jaap,

Are you writing that, effectively, if a person meters as they would with the meter configuration of an M6: And if a person determines exposure as a person would if they were using Kodachrome 64, meaning: Expose for the highlights while not worrying too much about the shadows that will more or less figure themselves out?

Keeping in mind. if you remember, that Kodachrome 64 benefitted, more so than some other films, from more accurate metering.

Then they should have a reasonably good proportion of properly exposed images?

Best Regards,

Michael

Edited October 14, 2021 by Michael Geschlecht

[MikeMyers]

Questions for @jaapv

First thing I think I understand about this video, is that if I take a photo of a pure white wall, I will end up with an image of an 18% gray, and that if I stand in front of a pure black wall, I will also end up with an image of 18% gray.  As the photographer, I need to understand that, and adjust my settings accordingly.  Bottom line, I "understand" this, but I'm not really sure how to apply it to real photographs I'm taking - beyond knowing that if the scene is overly bright or overly dark, I need to adjust the meter reading accordingly.  Nothing I have yet read suggests specifically how to do this.

Second thing, is the despite Marcus telling us he is going to explain how the meter works, he leaves out a very important part.  If I'm right, the light hits the shutter curtain, with those gray areas marked on it, and the light is reflected back to sensors that must be somewhere in the camera - but I have no idea where they are.  How many sensors are picking up this reflected light from the back of the camera (the shutter curtain), and where are they?  Marcus never mentions them.  Maybe I am wrong about this?

I understand what the video is teaching us, about that one specific example scene.  When I aim my M10 somewhere (at random), and I get the exposure indicators, or better yet with the visoflex, I also get a histogram, how do I know whether to use the suggested readings, or adapt them based on how light or dark the middle part of my scene is?  I assume I just learn this by doing it, and eventually figure out what to do, and how.  

It's not like with a Nikon, where the camera can automatically guess at a correct exposure along with everything else - the Leica is giving us all the information to enable US to make the correct settings.  That's what I need to learn how to do.

(I haven't been having problems with this - thanks to what you have already posted here, I am getting exposures that seem perfect, by viewing the histogram in the Visoflex mostly - but I'm sure there is a lot that I still need to learn.  Maybe I already know enough right now, but I have this nagging feeling that I don't really know how to get the best compromise for exposure.  ....and besides, if I'm not using the Visoflex and/or Live View, then what do I do?)

The M10 has three metering selections, but if I read things correctly, if I'm not using Live View or the Visoflex, all I can measure is "center weighted".  Put differently, if I'm not using Live View or the Visoflex, it doesn't matter what I select - the camera will only do center-weighted.  Is this really true?  

I think I'm going in the wrong direction, as nowadays I feel more comfortable with the M10 if I use the Visoflex.  It also gets me GPS information, which I prefer.  It's sad that the Visoflex uses up my battery so quickly, but it's beginning to feel like an essential accessory, which is also sort of effectively making my M10 into a "DSLR", or more so, a Mirrorless with all the tools that come with Mirrorless.  I prefer the simplicity of the basic camera, and would prefer to only use the Visoflex for complicated situations, not as my normal camera attachment.

Edited October 14, 2021 by MikeMyers
corrected typos

[Jeff S]

19 minutes ago, MikeMyers said:

Questions for @jaapv

First thing I think I understand about this video, is that if I take a photo of a pure white wall, I will end up with an image of an 18% gray, and that if I stand in front of a pure black wall, I will also end up with an image of 18% gray.  As the photographer, I need to understand that, and adjust my settings accordingly.  Bottom line, I "understand" this, but I'm not really sure how to apply it to real photographs I'm taking - beyond knowing that if the scene is overly bright or overly dark, I need to adjust the meter reading accordingly.  Nothing I have yet read suggests specifically how to do this.

Second thing, is the despite Marcus telling us he is going to explain how the meter works, he leaves out a very important part.  If I'm right, the light hits the shutter curtain, with those gray areas marked on it, and the light is reflected back to sensors that must be somewhere in the camera - but I have no idea where they are.  How many sensors are picking up this reflected light from the back of the camera (the shutter curtain), and where are they?  Marcus never mentions them.  Maybe I am wrong about this?

I understand what the video is teaching us, about that one specific example scene.  When I aim my M10 somewhere (at random), and I get the exposure indicators, or better yet with the visoflex, I also get a histogram, how do I know whether to use the suggested readings, or adapt them based on how light or dark the middle part of my scene is?  I assume I just learn this by doing it, and eventually figure out what to do, and how.  

It's not like with a Nikon, where the camera can automatically guess at a correct exposure along with everything else - the Leica is giving us all the information to enable US to make the correct settings.  That's what I need to learn how to do.

(I haven't been having problems with this - thanks to what you have already posted here, I am getting exposures that seem perfect, by viewing the histogram in the Visoflex mostly - but I'm sure there is a lot that I still need to learn.  Maybe I already know enough right now, but I have this nagging feeling that I don't really know how to get the best compromise for exposure.  ....and besides, if I'm not using the Visoflex and/or Live View, then what do I do?)

The M10 has three metering selections, but if I read things correctly, if I'm not using Live View or the Visoflex, all I can measure is "center weighted".  Put differently, if I'm not using Live View or the Visoflex, it doesn't matter what I select - the camera will only do center-weighted.  Is this really true?  

I think I'm going in the wrong direction, as nowadays I feel more comfortable with the M10 if I use the Visoflex.  It also gets me GPS information, which I prefer.  It's sad that the Visoflex uses up my battery so quickly, but it's beginning to feel like an essential accessory, which is also sort of effectively making my M10 into a "DSLR", or more so, a Mirrorless with all the tools that come with Mirrorless.  I prefer the simplicity of the basic camera, and would prefer to only use the Visoflex for complicated situations, not as my normal camera attachment.

You might read Adams’ classic trilogy….

https://www.amazon.com/New-Ansel-Adams-Photography-Volumes/dp/B000NKTMYW
 

… or attend some basic photo classes or workshops.

Jeff

[Michael Geschlecht]

Hello Mike,

Metering is not that hard to do. Which model of Nikon did you use & what type of metering did it have?

Best Regards,

Michael

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Hallo,

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[KFo]

Adams in the Camera, the Print, and the Negative does a good job explaining what is going on with that white wall and the 18% grey card.  BUT, I don’t think that the zone system it is super important for day to day exposures in a digital world.  My personal style is to often have black black in photos (Zone 1 in  Adam’s world) no matter the subject.  I just like it that way.

To prepare an exposure in that way, I typically am shooting in manual mode because working with wide angle (21-28-35) I’ll catch too much of one thing or another with the meter and burn up the entire sky or black out the entire earth.  I also don’t like spending time messing around with Lr, PS, C1, or whatever, so I try to capture my intention in the camera.

For me that normally means on a sunny Mediterranean day, my version of the “sunny 16 rule” (iso200, 1/180, f/11) works fine.  You can see, I’m about +1 stop from the basic rule.  With that setting, I’ll get the brightest, brightest parts of sky, mostly near the sun burned (don’t care) and plenty of shadow details to play around with if I want.  This lets me frame and shoot, frame and shoot with out messing around with metering.  It also lets me run the same settings almost all day long.  If I step into a narrow dark gothic alleyway, I can bump the ISO a couple of stops to compensate.  If I walk inside a building, I’ll either meter quickly and compensate or flick over to A-A mode and let the camera do the work.

For me, my keepers are generally the B&W JPG from the camera, the DNGs are there but just for curiosities sake usually.  Which leads me to another tip: you might consider switching to monochrome mode even if you don’t want to shoot B&W.  The reason is that the LCD (EVF) will display in B&W.  This abstracts the scene a bit but also lets you view more in terms of tonality without the complexity of color if you choose to use the technology.

If you switch to a good manual setting you’ll probably be surprised at how well it will work for most of your day. You can use the rangefinder exclusively and concentrate more on your intention.  In A-A mode the camera is constantly adjusting (it’s job for sure) but once you overlay your personal style and expectation, the camera doesn’t seem quite so smart anymore.