Why is the 90mm Elmarit so unloved?

[egrossman]

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This lens has to be one of the greatest bargains of the Leica line-up with the most recent version with the slide-out hood selling for $700-1000! It's very sharp wide open, saturated colors with (what I think) is a rather nice bokeh, all in a small package. F2.8 at 90mm is plenty fast enough for me! On the negative side is that the lens does suffer from some veiling flair shot and chromatic aberration (which is easily fixed in post). Both of these samples were shot wide open.

Erik

 

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[lct]

Why unloved? If you mean the v2 of his lens, i has always had an excellent reputation. 

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[egrossman]

I've always felt the much heavier Summicron (either pre-ASPH or ASPH) or Macro Elmar were preferred by many.

[lct]

4 minutes ago, egrossman said:

I've always felt the much heavier Summicron (either pre-ASPH or ASPH) or Macro Elmar were preferred by many.

Hard to compare lenses of different apertures. As far as 90/2.8 lenses are concerned, the Elmarit v2 is probably the best performer among Leica M lenses IMHO. Closer competitors were Summarits 90/2.5 and 90/2.4 but they are not produced anymore.

[TomB_tx]

Leica 90's have always been good, from my 1939 Elmar to the (fat) TeleElmarit I bought in 1968, the Elmar-C of the 1970s, and the Summarit - which was my last 90 purchase. I always found the Summicron 90s too big and heavy for the M bodies, but loved the Summicron-R on my Leicaflex (even though the Elmarit-R was sharper).

[pippy]

I'm very surprised to read that you think it isn't liked; it's always held in very high regard from everything I've seen written about it.

Where have you read anything negative about this lens?

Philip.

[adan]

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2 hours ago, egrossman said:

It's very sharp wide open, saturated colors with (what I think) is a rather nice bokeh....... On the negative side is that the lens does suffer from some veiling flair (sic) shot and chromatic aberration (which is easily fixed in post).

I've been messing around trying many of the M 90 lenses during the Covid year - and I recognized your description above immediately.

I'm not sure the 90 Elmarit-M (to distinguish the version made and sold from 1991 until 2007) is really unloved. They are not exactly being dumped on the market (I usually see them at $1000-$1500, depending). And its image quality has always been rated as "the best M 90 until the APO-Summicron."

I think it is more that it is not an exciting APO-Whatsitlux-ASPH, so it may just not get as much attention or posts. Excellent, but perhaps a bit - boring - for some segments of the market.

And that, as Leica 90mm f/2.8-ish lenses go, it is a leetle heavy and large. 400g/46mm, vs. 225g/39mm for the tiny predecessor Tele-Elmarit-M, or 335g/46mm for the successor Summarit f/2.5-2.4. (It was originally designed for the R system in 1981, and then the glass was ported to a mount for the M system in 1991.) For some users, those extra grams or mm make a difference.

And even more so since the 75 f/2.0 APO-Summicron gains a whole f/stop (and APO performance, FLE, and closer focusing) for only 40g more, and only a 20% lost in reach (easily cropped, if one must have "90mm" framing - and some even prefer the extra breathing-room with a 75mm).

I think the "blossoming" of 75s since 2000: APO-Summicron, Summarit f/2.5-f/2.4, Noctilux f/1.25, the rediscovery of the original Summilux f/1.4, and several variants from Voigtlander - f/2.5-1.8-1.5, have put all 90s a little more in the shadows.

[Danner]

 I {heart} my thin Tele-Elmarit-M.  😇

[egrossman]

4 hours ago, adan said:

I think the "blossoming" of 75s since 2000: APO-Summicron, Summarit f/2.5-f/2.4, Noctilux f/1.25, the rediscovery of the original Summilux f/1.4, and several variants from Voigtlander - f/2.5-1.8-1.5, have put all 90s a little more in the shadows.

@adan thanks for your reply. I always appreciate your detailed responses with regard to Mandler-era lenses. I guess everything is relative. I was comparing the weight of the Elmarit in my mind to the APO Summicron which is a bit of a beast to carry around. I hear you on the 75mm focal length. The discontinued Summilux remains my favorite lens on the M platform.

I hear that the veiling flare that I experience on the last Elmarit isn’t seen as much on early models. I wonder why (assuming this is true) Leica would have made a lens worse in some respects.

[adan]

3 minutes ago, egrossman said:

I hear that the veiling flare that I experience on the last Elmarit isn’t seen as much on early models.

That can be tricky to unpick.

Cameras can produce veiling flare as spill light bounces around on the shutter chamber walls/floor/ceiling between the lens and the film/sensor. (Sorry to bore the folks who've seen these images before):

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And the digital Ms - in order to closely approximate the external size of film Ms - have squished in the walls of that chamber to squeeze in more electronics behind them. And left out a key-hole-shaped baffle plate behind the camera's lens mount (which Leica obviously thought and thinks serves a purpose in the film Ms).

One would have to do a lot of old-lens/new-camera and newer-lens/older-camera comparisons to nail that theory down, though.

I certainly saw quite a bit more occasional veiling (and other) flare from several 90s (including an early Elmarit-M) - on my M10 - that I don't recall being as prevalent with M4-x/M6 bodies.

Why 90s in particular? Maybe the specific angle of incidence, skimming off the camera walls. Or maybe the location of the exit pupils, compared to a 75 or 135. And less with 90s that have more vignetting (darkened spill light).

I currently use a 90 Summarit f/2.5 myself for that reason. Actually a similar (but not identical) optical layout to the Elmarit-M

Still flares/veils sometimes, but less than the 90 EM I tried.

[tedd]

I had this lens for awhile. Liked some aspects of it, disliked others (mostly size and I struggled a lot with flair - may have been my particular example). I now sport a Tele-Elmarit thin and much prefer it if only because I am so much more likely to carry it with me. 

[pgk]

I think that 90mm lenses have their afficiandos but there are many who don't care for them because of focus issues and so on. I think that the Elmarit-M is an excellent lens however it can have its issues - mostly because copies can be relatively onld and may need a CLA (my experience). The f/2.5 Summarit is an even greater bargain at some of the prices being asked for a more recent lens. Is it too unloved?

[Danner]

6 hours ago, adan said:

That can be tricky to unpick.

Cameras can produce veiling flare as spill light bounces around on the shutter chamber walls/floor/ceiling between the lens and the film/sensor. (Sorry to bore the folks who've seen these images before):

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And the digital Ms - in order to closely approximate the external size of film Ms - have squished in the walls of that chamber to squeeze in more electronics behind them. And left out a key-hole-shaped baffle plate behind the camera's lens mount (which Leica obviously thought and thinks serves a purpose in the film Ms).

One would have to do a lot of old-lens/new-camera and newer-lens/older-camera comparisons to nail that theory down, though.

I certainly saw quite a bit more occasional veiling (and other) flare from several 90s (including an early Elmarit-M) - on my M10 - that I don't recall being as prevalent with M4-x/M6 bodies.

Why 90s in particular? Maybe the specific angle of incidence, skimming off the camera walls. Or maybe the location of the exit pupils, compared to a 75 or 135. And less with 90s that have more vignetting (darkened spill light).

I currently use a 90 Summarit f/2.5 myself for that reason. Actually a similar (but not identical) optical layout to the Elmarit-M

Still flares/veils sometimes, but less than the 90 EM I tried.

Another difference is that the lens mount on digital Ms protrudes from the body a couple mm's further than on film Ms, to keep the body thickness similar to film Ms, while giving thickness at the back for the rear LCD screen. So, there may simply not be enough room in the light box for the baffle.

[wda]

I don't think the 90mm Elmarit lens is so much 'unloved' as 'unconsidered', by buyers beguiled by the assumed superiority of Noctilux, Summilux or Summicron lenses. Elmarit and Summarit lenses are never an option for those people. From personal experience, l have been very impressed and pleased with the performance of my 'non-lux' lenses.

 

[egrossman]

3 hours ago, pgk said:

I think that 90mm lenses have their afficiandos but there are many who don't care for them because of focus issues and so on. I think that the Elmarit-M is an excellent lens however it can have its issues - mostly because copies can be relatively onld and may need a CLA (my experience). The f/2.5 Summarit is an even greater bargain at some of the prices being asked for a more recent lens. Is it too unloved?

I did have my lens 6-bit coded by Leica so perhaps since it’s been adjusted to better work with digital Ms is a reason why I’m getting great results (other than the flare).

[Jeff S]

22 hours ago, adan said:

And its image quality has always been rated as "the best M 90 until the APO-Summicron."

 

The late Mr. Puts had similar thoughts about the 90 Macro Elmar.  In his Leica Chronicles, he wrote…. “Within the Leica M range the Super Elmar 21mm, the Elmar 24mm ASPH, the APO-Telyt 135mm, and the APO-Summicron 50 ASPH are among the best performing lenses ever made for 135 format. The Macro Elmar easily joins this select list. It is simply the best general purpose 90mm lens in the current M range.”

Jeff

[crony]

Hi, I like using my Elmarit-M, especially its handling with the sliding hood. My 2 M mount 90s :

 

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A few samples, all open, some cropped, on the M9 ... :

 

 

 

 

 

 

Have a nice weekend!

 

 

 

 

 

[Narsuitus]

On 8/17/2021 at 4:08 PM, egrossman said:

Why is the 90mm Elmarit so unloved?"

For my 35mm SLR, I knew that liked the 85mm f/1.8 and f/1.4 lenses that I owned and used.

When shopping for slight telephoto for my 35mm Leica rangefinder, I thought I would like the 90mm f/2 Summicron and I was right.

I could neither love nor hate the 90mm Elmarit because I never even considered it.

[lct]

4 hours ago, crony said:

Hi, I like using my Elmarit-M, especially its handling with the sliding hood. My 2 M mount 90s [...]

A few samples, all open, some cropped, on the M9 ... :

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They told me mine was a unique copy
Sony A7r2 mod, Macro-Elmar 90/4, f/4

 

 

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[Michael Geschlecht]

Hello LCT,

I think if you go to Willendorf, Austria you might find some more.

Best Regards,

Michael