Leica lens mount on M3 stored for half a century - is it a good idea to use a very tiny bit of oil on the surface?

[MikeMyers]

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I suspect I should send my old Leica M3 in for a clean and lube, but I have a simple question to ask here.  When I mount lenses and remove them from the camera, there is more friction than with my newer Leica cameras.  I suspect that the tiniest amount of very light oil would correct that - applied with a tiny tube, and wiping most of it off with a paper towel.  Is this a safe thing to do?

The camera has been sitting like that with a 50mm collapsible Summicron lens attached, for at least 50 years.  I can see areas that look like they are slightly "stained", near the lens release button.

As far as I can tell, the camera is working well, and I haven't tried any of my other lenses on it.  I have a feeling I "think" differently than many years ago, and to my mind.a 35mm lens is my current "normal" lens.  If that's the case, I guess I need to dust off my old M2, or use a separate finder on top, instead of my Leicameter......

[david strachan]

I'd try cleaning the mating surfaces with alcohol first, rubbing slightly as well.  A Q-tip for difficult places.

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[Jeff S]

I would call Don Goldberg (DAG) or Sherry Krauter.

Jeff

[MikeMyers]

Thanks - if I send it to anyone, I'll send it to Don.

Rubbing alcohol + elbow grease.  Is that the same alcohol that comes in "alcohol pads"?

Before I send it off, I want to use it long enough to know if I'll continue using it.....

[Jeff S]

Even if you don’t send it to Don or Sherry, either can provide better guidance via phone call than relying on a forum survey.

Jeff

[david strachan]

You won't cause any harm with a clean.  I certainly keep my lens mounts clean...as sure so does Jeff.

Alcohol pads would be OK.

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[Michael Geschlecht]

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Hello Mike,

Generally you can never use too little oil. Because, if necessary, you can always add more. And often, if necessary, an unbelieveably tiny amount of oil is all that is needed. And only at very specific places. Conversely, it is often possible to use too much oil. Even if the amount of oil that you are using seems to be very little. 

Because, many fine instruments use much less oil than a person might think. And often parts & places that seem to need oil are designed & built to use none. 

Often brushed chrome surfaces are designed to be safe to handle. They generally do not need oil. And polished chrome surfaces are often designed not to be touched unless necessary. Like putting on or taking off a lens when the polished surfaces contact each other. And they generally do not need oil.

Altho the type & way of cleaning that David has suggested, just above, is a good idea. But not that often. And only when necessary.

When they do need oil: Different parts of cameras/lenses often need different types of oils. These types of oils are generally not available except from specialized sources. The different parts that do need oil, often need various different types of, clock, or watch, or instrument oils for specific parts. 

And, Jeff's suggestion that you should ask before doing something along these lines is a good idea.

Best Regards,

Michael

 

[250swb]

Watchmakers oil in an applicator is easily available from eBay but it should be used in unbelievably small amounts. That said I wouldn't put oil anywhere near the lens mount on an old camera because the solvents may damage the vulcanite. Isopropyl alcohol (IPA) is a far better bet because it evaporates very quickly and dust won't stick to any residue. In normal operation the lens mount isn't something that should ever be lubricated because the next question will be 'how do I get oil off my lens?'.

[Mute-on]

Clean with an alcohol wipe, and use a smear of oil from the side your your nose, that’s it. Nothing more than that should ever be required.  I’ve never used any oil on a lens mount in 30 years. I also don’t remember cleaning one, but it won’t hurt.

‘The difference in mounting friction is probably the slight difference in mounting flange flat spring tension (the curved ribbon springs behind the camera body mounting flange), nothing more.  If it’s firm, and works without forcing it, which is apparently the case, it’s fine. Leave the mount alone. 

Edited August 17, 2021 by Mute-on

[MikeMyers]

Yes, it is firm, but everything works.  

Based on what's written above, I may eventually wipe it with a very small amount of alcohol from a alcohol pad, wipe it, and leave it alone.  No oil.  Thanks for the advice. Most old things benefit from a tiny amount of oil, but I guess cameras are different.  I'm glad I asked here first.  Thank you all.

[MikeMyers]

7 hours ago, Michael Geschlecht said:

Because, many fine instruments use much less oil than a person might think. And often parts & places that seem to need oil are designed & built to use none. 

 

This is where I'm getting curious - I know what you wrote, and I agree, but how about surfaces that haven't been touched for 50 years?  This M3/lens has been in Michigan, Florida, anywhere I moved, never used, never touched.  My experience with other things is that parts get "stuck" to each other - which until now, I've fixed by wiping both surfaces with a dry piece of paper towel.  I'm sure the humidity has gone from too high, to too low, along with the temperature.  I know the Leica books say the camera is mostly sealed against dirt and moisture, and what is needed is just a good cleaning of the outside of the camera with a brush, if that.

The camera seems to work fine.  The aperture ring is tighter to turn than it used to be, and ditto for the focus adjustment.  Both turn smoothly, but neither is perfectly free like on a new lens.  Even the old Leicameter MR I bought felt "stiff", but the more I use it, it has freed up.  It's now acceptable.  

I will take the advice and ask Don.  I'm not sure how expensive cleaning is, but it's probably not inexpensive.  Still, I have no idea how much I will be shooting film, if at all, and if so, whether I'll be using the M3 with the lovely viewfinder (for 50mm) or the M2 which is maybe better for 35mm.  Way too many questions.  My other old lenses seem to work just fine, probably because I've been using them on my M8.2, and now my M10.  

[Pyrogallol]

A general clean and service from a qualified Leica engineer will see it come back in bright clean and smooth working order, as my M3 did recently, after a 40 year stay with a friend.

[MikeMyers]

Certainly - if I send it to Don, it will be like new when he returns it, but if I'm not going to use it much, if at all, what's the point?  I've also got my M2, my Nikon SP, and my Contax cameras, all of which need a clean and lube.  I had another M3 that didn't work at all - I gave it to Don, as a thank-you for fixing my 90mm Summicron (at a very reasonable cost).  It was locked up, and didn't do anything.

Anyway, here is a photo of the lens mount on my M3 - the worn areas and scuffing are pretty obvious.  I got out my M2, and mounting the same lens is smoother on the M2 compared to my M3.

I can't really complain - I've owned it since the 1960's, and used it a lot before I discovered the new Nikon SLR F.  The M2 I didn't use nearly as much, maybe because of the viewfinder.  It's much too long ago for me to remember.

 

Hmm, I think the "dust like stuff" on the inside edge might be from my wiping it with a paper towel.

From looking at the screws, it seems obvious to me that a non-Leica technician had been inside it at some point....

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Edited August 17, 2021 by MikeMyers

[MikeMyers]

Added later - the above photo is also a demonstration of why anyone working on something like a Leica camera MUST have the proper tools.  Regular, ordinary screwdrivers are NOT suitable for machine screws.  Most people don't seem to realize this, and butcher up screws on whatever they are working on.  Yuck.  The same thing happens with gunsmiths.  They have the proper tools for the job.  Customers don't, and bring in their guns with the screw heads all butchered up like what I see above.

Sorry for the interruption - I couldn't help it.  Things like this really annoy me.

[250swb]

2 hours ago, MikeMyers said:

Added later - the above photo is also a demonstration of why anyone working on something like a Leica camera MUST have the proper tools.  Regular, ordinary screwdrivers are NOT suitable for machine screws.  Most people don't seem to realize this, and butcher up screws on whatever they are working on.  Yuck.  The same thing happens with gunsmiths.  They have the proper tools for the job

I feel you may have read, or ought to read, 'Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance' by Robert Pirsig.

[MikeMyers]

Considering all the years I worked on various motorcycles, this sounds like an enjoyable read.  It will be delivered tomorrow.

About motorcycles and maintenance, it was always emphasized to have the correct tools, and to not "improvise".  That was the beginning of a huge increase in my tool collection, English, Metric, and Whitworth.  It also meant buying an "impact driver" for removing screws that someone else had already butchered.  I was given a set of "Hudy" tools many years ago, which has my name engraved on them.  They're all "machine tools", and nothing like what people buy at the hardware shop - which most people don't understand.

Thanks for the suggestion - sounds like good reading.

[Topsy]

2 hours ago, MikeMyers said:

Thanks for the suggestion - sounds like good reading.

Hope you're not dissapointed with your read, I was. 

[Michael Geschlecht]

Hello Mike,

No paper towels please.

Soft Q-tips are OK as per David. Altho I would only use plain water on a DAMP Q-tip on the vulcanite. Once a Q-tip gets noticeably dirty: Break it in the middle & put it into a separate trash/recycling container. Only use 1 end of a Q-tip. Only use a Q-tip ONCE.

NEVER put it back in the alcohol/water.  ALWAYS only use it DAMP.

"No", as to oil, pretty much means "no" in this instance.

You might read my Post #7 in this Thread again.

An M3 is good with a 50mm lens. But it is at its best with a 90mm lens. And it also really good with a 135mm lens if the lens does not have "goggles".

Best Regards,

Michael

[MikeMyers]

I re-read your post.  OK, no more paper towels.  Maybe no more anything.  I put the original strap back on the body, and the 50 works well enough.  A trip to Don would do wonders, but the condition of the screws might cause Don to faint.   😞     

One problem I have developed is from taking so many photos with my iPhone because I always have it on me.  I'm starting to "see" things that way.  I did enjoy using my 90 on the camera in my past life, but I never had a 135 to even try.  Especially with the 135, I'm likely to need my tripod if I want to be satisfied with the end result.  I don't like cropping with an iPhone as the sensor loses quality very rapidly, regardless of what Apple says.  Anyway, I need to start "framing" scenes in my mind with the 50mm focal length in mind.  

Most of the time I go walking around with just one lens.  Maybe that's a mistake.  When I take more lenses, it's because I expect to need them.

If I really want to start using the M3 a lot, I should get my developing stuff set up.  I haven't done that in a lifetime.  It used to be so natural.  Maybe (definitely!) I never should have sold my darkroom gear.

Thanks for the advice - maybe the best thing I can do now with my M3 is to not do anything, just use it.

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[Michael Geschlecht]

Hello Mike,

Using a 135mm lens is different than using a 90mm lens. Even beyond the + 1 stop of shutter speed that you need for equivalent handheld stability.

I learned photography with a 90mm lens & for years it was the only lens I had. A 90mm lens teaches a lot about photography because it allows a person to look at a scene, pick out the major part of interest & then the lens crops out unwanted foreground, as well as extraneous material on either side & removes unwanted overhead portions. Leaving the main subject of interest. Altho, sometimes that requires a degree of footwork & repositioning. Which might be difficult at times.

And it does all of this while maintaining a perspective not much different than the perspective with a 50mm lens.

You can teach yourself a lot about composition & what is necessary & what is not necessary by only using a 90mm lens.

A 135mm lens is different. It reaches into that scene that I just described & encloses the part that is the major interest within the scene that I just wrote about above. And there is just a slight compression of the perspective, which I like.

A 135mm lens is harder to use. But I traded the 90mm lens for the 135mm lens because I like the perspective, slight compression & greater selectivity of a 135mm lens better & I enjoy the challenge because an equivalently nice picture with a 135mm lens is harder to do than it is with a 90mm lens.

By the way, about tripods: I have always tried to use any camera like a "Kardan B on a Studex". As solidly set as possible.

Altho my "Studex" for many years has been a small, solid, table tripod with soft non-marking slippers. With a large ball head. And a cable release. And don't forget a lens hood. More for the protection of the lens from inadvertent impact or damage, than for flare suppression. The larger tripod usually stays home. 

Best Regards,

Michael