Should I sell my Rolex to buy a Leica M10R?

[michali]

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45 minutes ago, wizard said:

Why anyone would pay over EUR 10,000.- for your old Submariner if you can buy a brand new-new one for roughly EUR 7,500.- remains a mystery to me. And the current model has a vastly improved movement, too. 

For the same reasons that people pay crazy prices for old Leica R lenses which have no AF & have no image stabilisation.

Edited July 28, 2021 by michali

[T25UFO]

5 hours ago, Rodrigo castillo said:

which is great news….  if you are going to waste your money on something, a Leica Digital is a little less stupid as an investment than a sports car ... buy a leica m10 today claims to have lost a few thousand dollars in 5 years ... a Porsche allows you to burn several thousand just to get it out of store on the street

Not if it's a 911 GT3, in particular the latest 992 model.  If you can buy one (and most people even with the money can't) you could flip it for several thousand profit.

Same could be said for a Rolex Pepsi where you could double your money instantly . . . . if you could buy one.

As far as Leica is concerned, such profits only accrue with a few older lenses or rare film cameras.  Even the latest 75mm Noctilux sells for less secondhand and a digital Leica Camera body will depreciate, maybe not quite on the scale of Moore's Law, but it will never be a financial investment.

[a.noctilux]

As Leica fan, I'd buy one or two of those L1 and L2

sorry, these can not take picture neither.

...

Another idea, I don't know why these P. P. don't reach 100k€

why are they so cheap ?

while these P. P. Nautilus are a bit more € ...with 480 choices ?

Edited July 28, 2021 by a.noctilux

[Lee S]

I have a few nice Swiss watches IWC, Breitling & Mont Blanc. My wife owns a lovely Rolex. 

All of these were gifts and have sentimental value, will be heirlooms and hence I wouldn’t sell. 
 

If they had been self purchase I would sell them all for more Leica gear, I just don’t particularly enjoy the watches as much as cameras and I can’t capture memories and art with them. 

My watches are all mechanical which I don’t really enjoy/see the benefits of using. I’d prefer them to be quartz,…. 

A mechanical Leica and Lens is just wonderful to use. 

 

Edited July 28, 2021 by Lee S

[Jeff S]

4 hours ago, Al Brown said:

Hi.

You need TO TEST THE LEICA FIRST to see if it even suits your style and needs. Do a few rounds with it and thoroughly check if the OVF shooting is your cup of tea. This is one of the most important aspects of the move.
If it does, absolutely sell some gear, not the darn Rolex.

He owns several M bodies.

Jeff

[Rodrigo castillo]

3 minutes ago, Jeff S said:

He owns several M bodies.

Jeff

Thank you so much … Although you may think that your comments could only confuse me more, or that it is not possible to get good advice in a forum like this, for me it has been very useful.  1. It makes no sense to sell my Rolex to buy a camera.  2. I should sell other digital cameras to finance the leica M10. Maybe the big question I have now is whether to wait for the M11, not necessarily to buy one but to see how it affects the M10 market.  I'm in no rush.

[Jeff S]

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7 minutes ago, Rodrigo castillo said:

Although you may think that your comments could only confuse me more, 

I can assure you that none of my comments were intended to confuse you more; quite the contrary.

Jeff

[pippy]

12 hours ago, Rodrigo castillo said:

...I currently have...an M9...

...my question is should I sell some cameras and lenses to buy a...Leica m10R...or should I sell my Rolex which I hardly ever use...?

I want to stop...looking for the perfect image and rest assured knowing that I have the perfect camera and the perfect lenses...

Please correct me if I'm mistaken, Rodrigo, but can we assume that the bits I've retained above are the essential parts of your opening post? Can we also assume that you are at the 'very keen amateur with a good amount of experience and a fair bit of talent' level and not an exhibiting / Pro photographer who exhibits / sells prints at A3-size or larger? If so - and just for what it's worth - here's how I would appraise the situation from your perspective;

Important Points to consider;

1) I have an M9 and I know that I don't need an M10R; it would offer practically nothing more that I truly need. But I want an M10R and that is the important bit here.

2) I have a shed-load full of disposable 'stuff' which, if sold-off, would allow me to buy an M10R. What 'stuff' should I sell?

3) At the moment I consider the M10R to be the "perfect camera".

Answers to Important Points;

1) I should buy an M10R.

2) I should sell the 'stuff' I really don't need and/or look at / play with / use / value for sentimental reasons / would not have to buy back later on at a higher price.

3) I shouldn't buy an M10R as, in (say) 6 months time when the M11R comes out it will no longer be the "perfect camera".

You must first address this last point. At the moment you want an M10R because, in your mind, the M10R is "perfect" but how will you feel when the M11 comes out? This is far from easy to answer. From what we have seen posted here the general shape of the M11 will diverge from that of every previous M (except the M5) and might not be to everyone's taste so it might well be that the M10 will remain desirable over the incoming model.

As far as what to sell? Although the simplest solution would be to sell the watch I'd probably keep it. Instead I'd get rid of 3/4 your current cameras; they can always be replaced with similar items in the future - should you want them again - for about the same price as they are worth today.

Good luck with whatever to choose to do and please keep us posted.

Philip.

[Rodrigo castillo]

56 minutes ago, Jeff S said:

I can assure you that none of my comments were intended to confuse you more; quite the contrary.

Jeff

Jeff, absolutely not… maybe my mistake was put the comment here but I was talking about all the comments …. Thank you …

[Rodrigo castillo]

6 minutes ago, Rodrigo castillo said:

Jeff, absolutely not… maybe my mistake was put the comment here but I was talking about all the comments …. Thank you …

 

51 minutes ago, pippy said:

Please correct me if I'm mistaken, Rodrigo, but can we assume that the bits I've retained above are the essential parts of your opening post? Can we also assume that you are at the 'very keen amateur with a good amount of experience and a fair bit of talent' level and not an exhibiting / Pro photographer who exhibits / sells prints at A3-size or larger? If so - and just for what it's worth - here's how I would appraise the situation from your perspective;

Important Points to consider;

1) I have an M9 and I know that I don't need an M10R; it would offer practically nothing more that I truly need. But I want an M10R and that is the important bit here.

2) I have a shed-load full of disposable 'stuff' which, if sold-off, would allow me to buy an M10R. What 'stuff' should I sell?

3) At the moment I consider the M10R to be the "perfect camera".

Answers to Important Points;

1) I should buy an M10R.

2) I should sell the 'stuff' I really don't need and/or look at / play with / use / value for sentimental reasons / would not have to buy back later on at a higher price.

3) I shouldn't buy an M10R as, in (say) 6 months time when the M11R comes out it will no longer be the "perfect camera".

You must first address this last point. At the moment you want an M10R because, in your mind, the M10R is "perfect" but how will you feel when the M11 comes out? This is far from easy to answer. From what we have seen posted here the general shape of the M11 will diverge from that of every previous M (except the M5) and might not be to everyone's taste so it might well be that the M10 will remain desirable over the incoming model.

As far as what to sell? Although the simplest solution would be to sell the watch I'd probably keep it. Instead I'd get rid of 3/4 your current cameras; they can always be replaced with similar items in the future - should you want them again - for about the same price as they are worth today.

Good luck with whatever to choose to do and please keep us posted.

Philip.

That was an excellent summary!  Thank you very much and you are right in most of your statements.  The main reason to think about changing from my M9 to an M10 is that my M9 has the original sensor and although it has not shown problems with time it will occur and at the same time it will lose even more value than it has already lost.  At the same time, I would like to be able to use my R lenses on an M body, which is not possible with the M9 and yes with the M10.  Finally because the handling of high ISOS is quite limited on the M9.  Regarding how I will feel with an M10 when the M11 appears, I do not think it is a big psychological problem….  Hahaha ….  I have a Canon 6D mk I and I never felt that I needed the MKII, I have a Sony A7R 2 and it has never crossed my mind to need the A7R3 ... in the case of the comparison between the M9 and the M10 the changes do seem significant to me for what I do.  If the M11 comes with ISO 100,000,000 I won't care… if it comes with IBIS, even less….  anyway ….  I don't see what else could matter to me….

[pippy]

29 minutes ago, Rodrigo castillo said:

...The main reason to think about changing from my M9 to an M10 is that my M9 has the original sensor......I would like to be able to use my R lenses on an M body, which is not possible with the M9 and yes with the M10.  Finally because the handling of high ISOS is quite limited on the M9.  Regarding how I will feel with an M10 when the M11 appears, I do not think it is a big psychological problem….

All four points you mention here indicate that the M10R does, indeed, offer you much more than can the M9 and I suspect you would be more than happy with an M10R. If I were you I would sell-off some existing kit to finance the new arrival.

I was going to suggest that your M9 went with the rest of the gear but as it has a 1st. Gen. sensor it probably wouldn't bring in as much as you might have hoped. I'm not sure where you are based but here, in the UK, it's unlikely any Leica dealer would take such an M9 as part of a trade as, subsequently, they would be required to offer a guarantee to a future purchaser of the body which, of course, they would not be able to honour should the corrosion issue appear.

I would just keep it as a second / spare body.

Philip.

Edited July 28, 2021 by pippy

[Le Chef]

5 hours ago, wizard said:

Why anyone would pay over EUR 10,000.- for your old Submariner if you can buy a brand new-new one for roughly EUR 7,500.- remains a mystery to me. And the current model has a vastly improved movement, too. 

If you can buy one for €7,500 then let me know where and when. Most ADs have years long waiting lists for new stainless steel Rolexes, hence the high prices in the pre-owned market. 

[Rodrigo castillo]

29 minutes ago, pippy said:

All four points you mention here indicate that the M10R does, indeed, offer you much more than can the M9 and I suspect you would be more than happy with an M10R. If I were you I would sell-off some existing kit to finance the new arrival.

I was going to suggest that your M9 went with the rest of the gear but as it has a 1st. Gen. sensor it probably wouldn't bring in as much as you might have hoped. I'm not sure where you are based but here, in the UK, it's unlikely any Leica dealer would take such an M9 as part of a trade as, subsequently, they would be required to offer a guarantee to a future purchaser of the body which, of course, they would not be able to honour should the corrosion issue appear.

I would just keep it as a second / spare body.

Philip.

You are totally right … I think that I will keep the M9 and one CANON body (I use Canon for that moments that need fastness like a soccer game of my kids ) all the sony gear and other leica digital bodies will be part of the garage sell …. And well, I am in Chile, soud América, so everything is more difficult ….

[Adam Bonn]

No.

If you don't want the Rolex and need the money from it, then sure cash it in.

But the longer you keep it the more it'll go up in value.

Most cameras depreciate and the Leica is no exception. The (non-limited edition) Leica holds it's value better as a percentage, but not as a cash value.

If you bought say a brand new fuji X-Pro1 in 2012 and a brand new M240 at the same time, if selling today the Fuji will have lost about 75% of it's value and the M240 about 50%. Unfortunately 50% of what an M240 cost new is significantly more than 75% of what the fuji cost - so a common garden, non-limited edition Leica digital M is not a wise decision for the future if cash is important...

But more than this

We (can) form emotive bonds with watches, how we came by them, what we did wearing them - especially with Rolex that doesn't really change too much the style, it's possible to keep and enjoy a watch for a very long time.

The camera is something you use to make pictures. The bond is to the photos. The photos stay, but we often get GAS and move to a different camera.

I'd keep the watch (in fact when faced with a similar decision I did keep the watch. And some time later I ended up with the Leica anyway. remember - today's 8k M is just a few short years away from costing half that. With patience you can have both)

[Guest]

15 minutes ago, Adam Bonn said:

No.

If you don't want the Rolex and need the money from it, then sure cash it in.

But the longer you keep it the more it'll go up in value.

Most cameras depreciate and the Leica is no exception. The (non-limited edition) Leica holds it's value better as a percentage, but not as a cash value.

If you bought say a brand new fuji X-Pro1 in 2012 and a brand new M240 at the same time, if selling today the Fuji will have lost about 75% of it's value and the M240 about 50%. Unfortunately 50% of what an M240 cost new is significantly more than 75% of what the fuji cost - so a common garden, non-limited edition Leica digital M is not a wise decision for the future if cash is important...

But more than this

We (can) form emotive bonds with watches, how we came by them, what we did wearing them - especially with Rolex that doesn't really change too much the style, it's possible to keep and enjoy a watch for a very long time.

The camera is something you use to make pictures. The bond is to the photos. The photos stay, but we often get GAS and move to a different camera.

I'd keep the watch (in fact when faced with a similar decision I did keep the watch. And some time later I ended up with the Leica anyway. remember - today's 8k M is just a few short years away from costing half that. With patience you can have both)

Nicely said.......

[ianman]

Should I sell my Rolex to buy a Leica M10R? -> NO

Should I sell my Rolex to buy a Leica M-A or MP? -> YES

[Pyrogallol]

Agree, nothing with a computer chip in it is a long term investment.

[Rodrigo castillo]

12 minutes ago, ianman said:

Should I sell my Rolex to buy a Leica M10R? -> NO

Should I sell my Rolex to buy a Leica M-A or MP? -> YES

Your right … but I have my leica M3 and really don’t feel I need a new film one. My M3 is like new, working perfectly in every way, I shoot black and white mostly so I don’t need a Lightmeter and for 35 mm lenses I have not problem  without the frames … maybe for 28 but I am not a wide angle fan …. But I see your point and from a financial point of view is totally right ….

[wizard]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb Le Chef:

If you can buy one for €7,500 then let me know where and when. Most ADs have years long waiting lists for new stainless steel Rolexes, hence the high prices in the pre-owned market. 

Last summer they were begging for customers, due to the shutdown in many countries, and you could buy many Rolex models on the spot (and some even at a discount). Whether that has now changed (it may well have changed) is something I do not know, as I am not in the market of buying a Rolex. What I do know, however, is that Rolex is deliberately shortening supply of at least some models to keep up the prices. And while that has worked most of the time, it didn't work last summer.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[klausi]

12 hours ago, Rodrigo castillo said:

which is great news….  if you are going to waste your money on something, a Leica Digital is a little less stupid as an investment than a sports car ... buy a leica m10 today claims to have lost a few thousand dollars in 5 years ... a Porsche allows you to burn several thousand just to get it out of store on the street

well, these days, used Porsche prices are on the rise ....