Advice for those thinking of a M240 in 2021

[UltraDan]

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3 hours ago, pippy said:

So, to sum up, you are criticising a camera - and advising potential buyers to avoid buying this camera - because of your ineptitude as to how to use /  interpret this camera's TTL metering system. Correct?

It's pretty clear that you have / had no idea how to use this camera properly. For you to offer advice to others because of your failings is unhelpful to put it very mildly.

Philip.

It's just crap metering system on this camera that doesn't work well and requires the user to take multiple shots to be sure of a keeper, when you allow a camera to use its own judgment you usually want it to be right but this thing rarely is. 

[jdlaing]

Or take one shot where you know what you’re doing instead of letting a camera make a decision for you.

[Jean-Michel]

Re metering system. The meter works perfectly, it measures approximately ⅓ of the view, regardless of the attached lens. So, if that area of your shot averages  roughly to a middle gray, you are good to go. If not, either meter another area or use your educated judgment to adjust the exposure, as I wrote earlier, it is not rocket science. Just as with films, choose an ISO and set your exposure accordingly. There is no need to be sloppy or overly concerned: on this side of the street it looks like 1/125 at f/8; on the other side, it is 1/60 at f/5.6,and just photograph. 

[pippy]

37 minutes ago, UltraDan said:

It's just crap metering system on this camera that doesn't work well and requires the user to take multiple shots to be sure of a keeper...

Nope. Time to face facts. You didn't know how to use the camera. Pity because it's a great camera. Hopefully the new owner will understand how to use it.

Philip.

Edited February 14, 2021 by pippy

[UltraDan]

7 hours ago, pippy said:

Nope. Time to face facts. You didn't know how to use the camera. Pity because it's a great camera. Hopefully the new owner will understand how to use it.

Philip.

Lol. 

[andybarton]

There is nothing wrong with the M240 metering system. 
 

It doesn’t have 459,900 zones or whenever Sony are offering this week. 
 

But it does work very well. 
 

If it didn’t, all the 1,000s of shots I’ve taken in the last six years would be badly exposed. And they’re not. 
 

Let’s get a grip. 
 

Have fun with your Sony or Nikon or Canon or whatever. Leicas aren’t for everyone. 

[willeica]

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With digital Ms you have to be careful where you take your meter reading when there is a wide variance of light level in the frame to be exposed. They don't have the fancy exposure electronics of other camera types, but that is the whole point of M cameras. You can, of course, use the rear screen to check on exposure or you can alter exposure when you get home. The digital M is not for point and shoot photography, but it is a great teacher in respect of the essentials of photography. Used properly you will soon find yourself guessing the right exposure. If you can't hack this then the digital M is not for you. There are plenty of other cameras with auto-everything out there. 

William 

[Herr Barnack]

On 2/13/2021 at 6:59 PM, UltraDan said:

It's just crap metering system on this camera that doesn't work well and requires the user to take multiple shots to be sure of a keeper, when you allow a camera to use its own judgment you usually want it to be right but this thing rarely is.

There are two possibilities: 
1 - Defective meter
2 - Operator error

Blaming a Leica M camera for disappointing results??  Seriously??

Along with a few good images, a lot of crappy images come out of my M cameras.  When they do, I understand the fact that the camera is not to blame.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 16, 2021 by Herr Barnack

[Ernstk]

On 2/13/2021 at 11:59 PM, UltraDan said:

It's just crap metering system on this camera that doesn't work well and requires the user to take multiple shots to be sure of a keeper, when you allow a camera to use its own judgment you usually want it to be right but this thing rarely is. 

It seems to me that you're perhaps not ready for a digital Leica yet. It also seems you need to do quite a bit more work on understanding exposure control. 

You're clearly expecting your camera to make you a better photographer and that's simply not going to happen.

Ernst

[boojum]

7 hours ago, Ernstk said:

It seems to me that you're perhaps not ready for a digital Leica yet. It also seems you need to do quite a bit more work on understanding exposure control. 

You're clearly expecting your camera to make you a better photographer and that's simply not going to happen.

Ernst

UltraDan seems to have quite a few cameras, Japanese cameras.  So he not only has experience with cameras he also has experience with cameras which are bleeding edge technology.  This is fact.  The Japanese cameras have a lot of bells and whistles.  And while they all allow the full experience of total manual control (focus, aperture, shutter speed, etc.) they will all take an excellent photo just by framing your subject and pushing the shutter button.  This is fact.  I do not see it is a point of conjecture.  Leicas are very rarely the camera of choice with folks who have to get the image, do or die.  Listen to any press conference or look around the room in any press conference and it is Japanese gear. This is not open to conjecture.

Leica enjoys less than 1% of camera market share.  That is how the market values this particular Leitz product.  Kaufmann, the current boss, says they are hoping for a 1% market share in the next ten years.  (https://www.techradar.com/news/photography-video-capture/cameras/leica-aims-for-1-camera-market-share-1039773)  This will be difficult.  I liken it to trying to sell well-made cars in today's market which have to be hand cranked to be started.  Yeah, they are lovely cars, and the quality of construction is mechanically nice, the electronics are old-fashioned and shaky, but they are a lot of fun to drive.  For something that will start well, run well, and have less of a rate of failure, buy a Sony.  That is how the camera market has responded, Sony has ~42% market share, Leica ~0.15.  If you have any belief at all in capitalism these results are sending a strong and undeniable message.

So while it may be expedient to criticize UltraDan as a know-nothing it might come off as pecksniffian.  Rather than swaddle ourselves in denial wouldn't it be better to admit that the Leica, lovable as it is, has a list of technological shortcomings not in the larger market share cameras?  Yes, you can take your time, exercise a "zen" approach and come away with a great image. In a higher percentage than the Japanese pack?  Who knows?  And if you really want to follow this "zen" argument to its logical conclusion I offer wet-plate photography, tin type and similar excellent but challenging methods.  And, of course, this is only my opinion.  I suspect that I am in the minority.  I am only sharing what I believe to be the truth.

And, yes, the Sony Alpha series can make you a better photographer by getting the focus and exposure right every time.  And in an instant.  Unhappy with IQ?  I'd suggest that LR PP is not a burden as I see DNG bandied about as the best way to go.

Cheers

Edited February 16, 2021 by boojum

[a.noctilux]

We are lucky to have choices, as I often write.

Leica M is not for every user (or every use).

Using Leica M means a bit (or a lot) of personal commitment.

Myself, I don't need good pictures, but I enjoy the "picture making" with Leica M, for some decades now.

If I don't like Leica M, lucky me, I can move to other Leica gears (SL, CL, T, S, etc.)  or other brands (that I use also Sony, Canon, Nikon, etc. ).

[tom.w.bn]

vor 8 Stunden schrieb Ernstk:

It seems to me that you're perhaps not ready for a digital Leica yet. It also seems you need to do quite a bit more work on understanding exposure control. 

You're clearly expecting your camera to make you a better photographer and that's simply not going to happen.

Ernst

I personally think, that everything that takes away technical aspects of photography from the photographers, can make them better photographers... just because they have more time to concentrate on the subject. No one really needs to know the exposure when looking at a scene, the camera can do that. It's not harmful to remember that, but not necessary to be a great photographer.

 

[Ernstk]

12 minutes ago, tom.w.bn said:

No one really needs to know the exposure when looking at a scene, the camera can do that. It's not harmful to remember that, but not necessary to be a great photographer.

 

Yes, you're right. The camera can do that, if you know how to direct it. And that knowledge helps make you a better photographer.

Ernst

[martinot]

2 hours ago, boojum said:

For something that will start well, run well, and have less of a rate of failure, buy a Sony.  That is how the camera market has responded, Sony has ~42% market share, Leica ~0.15.  If you have any belief at all in capitalism these results are sending a strong and undeniable message.

I do not disagree with the difference in market share, but Sony has historically had a lot of problems with their A7-cameras. Everything from poor whether sealing to over heating issues. If a robust camera where my prime goal, I would absolutely not get a Sony camera.

https://www.outsidetheshot.com/all-of-the-problems-with-the-sony-a7/

https://www.imaging-resource.com/articles/2017-weather-testing-nikon-d850-vs-sony-a7riii-canon-5div-olympus-e-m1II

Quote

As you can see in the video above, after the first "rainstorm" test, the D850 ended up with a large drop of water inside the viewfinder eyepiece, but it didn't interfere with camera operation in any way, and was easily removed by dabbing it with a towel, after removing the eyepiece optic.

In contrast, the A7R III had a lot of water in its battery compartment. This must have entered through the top panel somehow, as it was up inside the battery compartment, vs just in the bottom, and the bottom of the camera wasn't actually touching the table surface: It was mounted on a 70-200mm lens, and the whole assembly was resting on the tripod mount of the lens throughout the test.

 

 

Edited February 16, 2021 by martinot

[boojum]

5 hours ago, martinot said:

I do not disagree with the difference in market share, but Sony has historically had a lot of problems with their A7-cameras. Everything from poor whether sealing to over heating issues. If a robust camera where my prime goal, I would absolutely not get a Sony camera.

https://www.outsidetheshot.com/all-of-the-problems-with-the-sony-a7/

https://www.imaging-resource.com/articles/2017-weather-testing-nikon-d850-vs-sony-a7riii-canon-5div-olympus-e-m1II

 

 

I have the A7M II.  I have not experienced the outlined problems other than bad battery life, just like the M8, M8.2 and M9.  They may exist, I just have not experienced them.  Weather protection?  About as good as a Leica.  I do not take it out in the rain.  I ask you, why would I take a camera out in the rain?  If I were to it would be dressed in a water-tight bag for cameras.  As for a robust camera, I would advise against a Leica.  This forum has many threads of electronic failure including, yes, overheating.  And the proof of the pudding is in the eating, what do professional photographers use?  There must be a reason for this wonderful camera to have a 0.15% market share while shaky old Sony has 42%.  OK, I am stupid.  But what about the pros? Let's stop running from reality.

I have had the A7M II since they came out on the market, late in 2014. I have the 55mm f/1.8 Zeiss/Sony and the 24mm - 240mm Sony zoom.  Both are excellent lenses,  The zoom is way sharper than you might think. Check the detail and color in this photo.  Ooops, I cannot get it to display as a link.  Here is where it is as an album: https://www.flickr.com/photos/sandynoyes/albums/72157667122743522  Poke around in a bunch of old airplanes in a hanger in the île de France.  The Blackhawk Car Museum is in another album.  I had no Leica at the time of the auto museum.  I might have used it had I one.  But in a rushed atmosphere it is so nice to frame the subject, push the shutter button, have three HDR photos merged in-camera which I can review as an HDR and also as a single shot.  Right on the spot.  No LR finagling to merge the three images.  Our radios and TV's tune automatically.  Our cars meter fuel, transmission shifts, interior temperature by way of computers.  What we are using to address this discussion right now is a computer.  It is 2021.  My washer and dryer and fridge are controlled by computers.  Saying a camera is better because it is not automatic is like saying a car is better because it is a stick shift.  One may drive a stick shift out of preference but even stick shifts have almost disappeared. 

And Leica is playing catch-up in electronics.  Not being a behemoth like Sony or Canon they do not have the funds or the personnel to run a large image software R&D shop.  The future will be a challenge for Leitz camera division.  Less that 1% market share does not feed the bulldog. So I continue to regard the Leica digitals as weekend toys, not unlike a Morgan Plus Four or a Mini Moke, or my choice, an '87 Citroën 2CV.  I tried to go to the East Coast and back in the 2CV.  It could not get over the Rockies with any dispatch.  It is a lot of fun on Saturday and Sunday with the top open on a sunny day.  It is not serious transportation.  I like it none the less, I just do not count on it for anything serious.

And I do not dislike Leica, I've bought four and have three now.  One M-240 was a gift to an old friend.  I still have the M8.2, M-240 and M-9.  But the Sony is a sure-fire git-er done camera.  Even the tiny Pentax Q-S1 does the job every time and with ease and pretty darned good images.  It boils down to the old Brit expression of different horses for different courses.  The Leica is like that wonderful but aged Morgan mare that you take out on weekends for a nice ride.

Cheers

 

 

 

Edited February 17, 2021 by boojum

[Cobram]

2 hours ago, boojum said:

I have the A7M II.  I have not experienced the outlined problems other than bad battery life, just like the M8, M8.2 and M9.  They may exist, I just have not experienced them.  Weather protection?  About as good as a Leica.  I do not take it out in the rain.  I ask you, why would I take a camera out in the rain?  If I were to it would be dressed in a water-tight bag for cameras.  As for a robust camera, I would advise against a Leica.  This forum has many threads of electronic failure including, yes, overheating.  And the proof of the pudding is in the eating, what do professional photographers use?  There must be a reason for this wonderful camera to have a 0.15% market share while shaky old Sony has 42%.  OK, I am stupid.  But what about the pros? Let's stop running from reality.

I have had the A7M II since they came out on the market, late in 2014. I have the 55mm f/1.8 Zeiss/Sony and the 24mm - 240mm Sony zoom.  Both are excellent lenses,  The zoom is way sharper than you might think. Check the detail and color in this photo.  Ooops, I cannot get it to display as a link.  Here is where it is as an album: https://www.flickr.com/photos/sandynoyes/albums/72157667122743522  Poke around in a bunch of old airplanes in a hanger in the île de France.  The Blackhawk Car Museum is in another album.  I had no Leica at the time of the auto museum.  I might have used it had I one.  But in a rushed atmosphere it is so nice to frame the subject, push the shutter button, have three HDR photos merged in-camera which I can review as an HDR and also as a single shot.  Right on the spot.  No LR finagling to merge the three images.  Our radios and TV's tune automatically.  Our cars meter fuel, transmission shifts, interior temperature by way of computers.  What we are using to address this discussion right now is a computer.  It is 2021.  My washer and dryer and fridge are controlled by computers.  Saying a camera is better because it is not automatic is like saying a car is better because it is a stick shift.  One may drive a stick shift out of preference but even stick shifts have almost disappeared. 

And Leica is playing catch-up in electronics.  Not being a behemoth like Sony or Canon they do not have the funds or the personnel to run a large image software R&D shop.  The future will be a challenge for Leitz camera division.  Less that 1% market share does not feed the bulldog. So I continue to regard the Leica digitals as weekend toys, not unlike a Morgan Plus Four or a Mini Moke, or my choice, an '87 Citroën 2CV.  I tried to go to the East Coast and back in the 2CV.  It could not get over the Rockies with any dispatch.  It is a lot of fun on Saturday and Sunday with the top open on a sunny day.  It is not serious transportation.  I like it none the less, I just do not count on it for anything serious.

And I do not dislike Leica, I've bought four and have three now.  One M-240 was a gift to an old friend.  I still have the M8.2, M-240 and M-9.  But the Sony is a sure-fire git-er done camera.  Even the tiny Pentax Q-S1 does the job every time and with ease and pretty darned good images.  It boils down to the old Brit expression of different horses for different courses.  The Leica is like that wonderful but aged Morgan mare that you take out on weekends for a nice ride.

Cheers

 

 

 

Sad but true.

My hope is related to Leica - Huawei collaboration.  Do Siemens produce smartphones? Do Grundig produce Smart TV-s?...  Huwaei now posess technology and practical knowledge. Two decades of stupid politicians and (who knows) other influencers convinced European citizens that industry and production is something bad (pollution, CO2,...). So at the end, after decades, you theoretically know what you have to do, but you don't know how to perform the task. This is happening now in Europe. And Leica is not alone here... (I somehow sympathise with Leica) I still remember newspaper titles: "We, in Europe, are developing a society of wisdom and knowlege". It is OK to have knowledge (recipe, theory) how to bake bread but at the end you have to bake it🙂 And then you realise (after few error-tray cicles) what are important details, how your oven behaves etc.

Outsourcing is double-edged sword. I still remember a conversation with an engineer of very famous German company asking me details about zinc coating (decades old and basic technology). I was fascinated and asked him: "but you (german engineers) were the best platers in world, how you don't know this?". His answer was very direct:"we are outsourcing "old technologies" and now, after decades I have no clue what to specify on the drawing, because I have no production and technologist to talk with" 🤔

Leica is doing marvelous job in its optical (still not outsourced) department. They are too small to produce electronics at home so outsourcing is needed. But how to specify important details if you are not producing electronics for some decades now all over the continent? Where to find experienced and qualified engineers? ( to be precise there are still some small companies operating in Europe, but majority is in Asia).

Again, crossed fingers for Huawei-Leica future...

 

 

[Mahesh]

All your statements make sense to me looking from your perspective. I do not think people criticising about your photo skills is nice. We all are at different levels of photography. I see everyone has a different opinion and some have taken it as a criticism to their personal Leica ownership. Ultimately, I am stating the cliche but great photographers do not need the best camera. They need to understand the light and capture the right moment. I have seen someone on Flickr taking pictures with very old Nikon D90 and they will put many others to shame, including myself.  Leica is a good option if you are into 1) RF 2) simplicity of menu 3) fascinated by the small, amazing glass regardless of M240, M9, M10 or whatever....

PS - I have had M10 which I sold off as at the time, I preferred using my XT3. I now have A7c and X100V. Both great cameras but I do miss an M. 

Edited February 17, 2021 by Mahesh

[Casey Jefferson]

I'm relatively new to the photography world and started with mirrorless like many others.

Like OP said, the big advantage to shoot Leica is the lenses, which to me the sole reason. It's the perfect balance walk around camera for me, shooting something that interests me on the street and daily life. The slowing down deliberate gestures when shooting Leica makes me more involved in the process. New techs are pretty boring although they often product excellent results with ease - when the Leica do hit a great image, it's nothing like shooting with a Leica.

For the model in question, I'm pretty comfortable shooting up to ISO3200. I no longer blow up my images and peep on the details because the images looked stunning and detailed without you zooming in, hence the noise weren't even that obvious and I often leave the noise as is - not pretty, but not distracting. And recently learning to shoot in manual mode like the old days (older than me!) and it actually distract much much less and one can focus on making images than worry about fiddling with exposures.

Once in a while when I use a Fuji X system and Sony FE system it feels unreal, and they're such a useful tools to get the shots. But for people who started right away with these latest tech probably won't grow much as a photographer - I find myself shooting a lot more keepers after shooting with an M for a while.

[jto555]

On 2/12/2021 at 2:57 PM, UltraDan said:

The camera does offer the Leica rangefinder experience but for me as someone who shoots an M4-P I found it was actually slower to make pictures and this is due to the rear screen that really makes judging the image exposure hard. 
The camera is also quite a bit wider than my Analog Leica. 
 

 

 

It is not good practice to judge the exposure from the screen of any camera. The screen can appear bright or dark in relation to the ambient light level. It is much better and a lot more accrete to use the histogram to judge exposure.

This could be why you are having issues with you exposures.

 

 

As for ISO, have a look at this thread where I shot a M240 at 25,000ISO and got a clean image with some careful shooting and processing:

https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/316621-leica-m240-clean-image-at-over-25000-iso/

 

Also do not be afraid to use noise reduction in Photoshop or Capture One. I use it all the time. Have a look at some of my photographs on this site.

 

On 2/13/2021 at 9:22 PM, Al Brown said:

The three really hurtful things about M240 for pro use in 2021 are neither the thickness, nor the resolution (the latter being the only thing quoted in all "upgrade to M10-R" posts) but poor shadow recovery and the green cast thereof, blown out highlights and 7-image buffer.

 

 

 I have to agree with you on the thickness and resolution. Plus the M240 has a bigger battery than the M10. However I have to say that I find the shadow recovery much better than and Canon Eos (the R is a different animal) and prety good. I find that the green cast has improved with firmware and not an issue now. One of the forum members made a plugin for Lightroom to remove the case, but unfortunitly I cannot fine the link to the download now.

 

John

 

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[tom.w.bn]

vor 57 Minuten schrieb jto555:

...

As for ISO, have a look at this thread where I shot a M240 at 25,000ISO and got a clean image with some careful shooting and processing:

https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/316621-leica-m240-clean-image-at-over-25000-iso/

 

...

I saw your post about that before. The result is fine but it needed numerous shots and excessive postprocessing. Because of that, your description "careful shooting an processing" is a bit funny.