GFX100S vs SL2/X1D

[Stuart Richardson]

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4 hours ago, Simone_DF said:

But same can be said of Panasonic. And actually Panasonic is way bigger than Fujifilm. 

Yes! I would argue that the S1, S1R and S5 are also incredibly good cameras and at the time they were released, they were laid down the gauntlet to other manufacturers by offering much better viewfinders, better video specs, premium build and super high quality sensors. The two biggest challenges to Panasonic have been the contrast detect focusing and the fact that they were building a system from scratch. But at the time they were released, they got a huge amount of attention, and rightly so. The flagships have not been updated in awhile, so it will be interesting to see what their next offering will be.

Edited January 31, 2021 by Stuart Richardson

[AlanJW]

3 hours ago, caissa said:

The SL2 is still top for me. Also because of IBIS and multishot. But mainly because of all the Leica lenses.

The A1 will come in a month or two, only then testing is possible. AF is probably better, but I rarely need it. (AFc is weaker, but AFs is more than good enough for all I need).

Chasing always the latest technology means spending a lot of money. And also losing a lot of time to get accustomed to the new equipment. So in my eyes this is not professional.

The weakness of the SL system was always that Leica produces so few lenses, with very long waits between them.  The partners in Lmount helped a bit, but in the end I still prefer the Leica lenses.

All those M lenses can be used on the SL2 as well.  Not autofocus of course, but they perform very well.  The form factor of SL2 and M lenses is also easier to handle.  What we sometimes forget is that there is no perfect camera and certainly no perfect camera for everyone.  There are trade-offs in every camera, including price, sensor, ergonomics, etc.   Leicas and Fujis and everone else.   It is just a matter of deciding what set of compromises works best for you. 

[Simone_DF]

5 hours ago, Succisa75 said:

Actually the S5 doesn’t have a BSI sensor but does have dual native ISO tech. The BSI is unique to Leica comparing the Lumix to the SL2-S 

That strengthen the fact that the SL2 should receive the same update. The firmware, in particular the AF, is coming mostly from Panasonic and custom modded by Leica, and Panasonic cameras have much more in common with the SL2 than with the unique BSI sensor offered on the SL2-S. If anything, it should be harder to port it to the SL2-S. 

My two cents is that the sensor doesn't really make any difference. Within limits, anything can be ported, or almost.  

[SrMi]

6 hours ago, Succisa75 said:

Actually the S5 doesn’t have a BSI sensor but does have dual native ISO tech. The BSI is unique to Leica comparing the Lumix to the SL2-S 

"..The S5 features a 24MP BSI CMOS sensor, also found in the S1.."

AFAIK, the difference is that SL2-S uses a Sony sensor, though the PDR vs. ISO is very similar.

[hillavoider]

Every time I mention class action law suit, refunds or false advertising it gets deleted 👍

[P1505]

Reading a lot about people ditching gear for this new camera. Hoping an SL2 comes up at a good price

[Succisa75]

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2 hours ago, SrMi said:

"..The S5 features a 24MP BSI CMOS sensor, also found in the S1.."

AFAIK, the difference is that SL2-S uses a Sony sensor, though the PDR vs. ISO is very similar.

No offense to DP Review but they tend to get some things wrong. Actually if you just Google “Panasonic Lumix S5 sensor” you will see it’s not mentioned anywhere else that it’s BSI. Even Panasonic doesn’t mention it on their own site. 

Yes it’s more than likely a Sony sensor which means Leica went a different direction than Panasonic. Perhaps this is good thing in the long term. 

[Succisa75]

5 hours ago, Stuart Richardson said:

Yes! I would argue that the S1, S1R and S5 are also incredibly good cameras and at the time they were released, they were laid down the gauntlet to other manufacturers by offering much better viewfinders, better video specs, premium build and super high quality sensors. The two biggest challenges to Panasonic have been the contrast detect focusing and the fact that they were building a system from scratch. But at the time they were released, they got a huge amount of attention, and rightly so. The flagships have not been updated in awhile, so it will be interesting to see what their next offering will be.

Agree. They are really nice cameras with some class leading specs at the time. I actually still use the S1R and S1H from time to time. 
Their issue was from my understanding speaking to reps at the Panasonic local level was pricing, lens lineup and the AF system. Pricing was too high for having a camera with three lens at launch. Most don’t really talk include Leica lenses due to price. The AF system also affected potential buyers, as they weren’t confident to move into another system with AF that isn’t as good as the cameras they currently use. 
to Panasonic’s credit they have improved these shortcomings quite a bit since the launch, and added a number of new lenses with Sigma showing great support,  but none of those firmware updates have come to the SL2 except the multishot feature which was in the S1R since launch.  Even the big November update for the Lumix line that improved AF quite significantly never came to light from Leica. This is very disheartening and unfortunate. 

Edited January 31, 2021 by Succisa75

[SrMi]

48 minutes ago, Succisa75 said:

No offense to DP Review but they tend to get some things wrong. Actually if you just Google “Panasonic Lumix S5 sensor” you will see it’s not mentioned anywhere else that it’s BSI. Even Panasonic doesn’t mention it on their own site. 

Yes it’s more than likely a Sony sensor which means Leica went a different direction than Panasonic. Perhaps this is good thing in the long term. 

I see BSI mentioned by some other reviewers (PetaPixel, PCMag, ..), but they probably copy from each other. I agree that Panasonic would have mentioned it in their publications if they used BSI sensors.

[Mr.Q]

Well the SL2 and X1DII are gone to make room for the GFX100S.

I think Leica did their part with the SL2 in making a camera body with great ergonomics and handling. They really need to cut ties with Panasonic as their sensor supplier though. You can't compete with a FF camera with slow AF nowadays when MF cameras are doing eye-AF reliably. You might be able to get away with stills but certainly not for video.

I look forward to the SL3 but for now I'll make do with the M9-P and Q2 as my only Leica's.

[SrMi]

5 minutes ago, Mr.Q said:

Well the SL2 and X1DII are gone to make room for the GFX100S.

I think Leica did their part with the SL2 in making a camera body with great ergonomics and handling. They really need to cut ties with Panasonic as their sensor supplier though. You can't compete with a FF camera with slow AF nowadays when MF cameras are doing eye-AF reliably. You might be able to get away with stills but certainly not for video.

I look forward to the SL3 but for now I'll make do with the M9-P and Q2 as my only Leica's.

Good luck with the GFX system. BTW, SL2-S uses Sony's sensor.

Edited February 1, 2021 by SrMi

[LeonS]

I have SL2 and x1dii, and has been debating to pull the trigger for the 907x because I don’t want to bent my back to photograph my kids.

the new 100s is really attractive compared to SL2 and x1dii. Overall, while I love the handling of SL2, I am quite disappointed by the IQ at high iso. Perhaps it is because I have only zoom lens on the l mount so I need to hit high iso often. I feel I have been getting better pics on my m10r and m10m with easier effort. 

x1d is mostly beautiful camera but god I cannot live with the touch screen focus point adjustment. The touch screen is not as snappy as a smart phone. I always over adjust the focus point. Another thing is that focus is so slow on the 80 I miss focus too often with kids. I also have run into enough glitch that I can ignore. IQ and lens are very nice though. 
 

the 100s’s lens range and bit depth are no worse than what hassy offers. I am sure the colour difference are there but that’s something I can likely live with since I expect I can get more keepers over all with IBIS, multishot, larger lens range.

why fuji cannot man up and release a 907x like their omega concept camera, then my jump to fuji from SL2 and hassy would be trivial. I appreciate the thought that went into the minimalist ux in leica and hasselblad but what pic I produce from these cameras are what dictate my camera choices.

 

 

 

[Succisa75]

2 hours ago, LeonS said:

I have SL2 and x1dii, and has been debating to pull the trigger for the 907x because I don’t want to bent my back to photograph my kids.

the new 100s is really attractive compared to SL2 and x1dii. Overall, while I love the handling of SL2, I am quite disappointed by the IQ at high iso. Perhaps it is because I have only zoom lens on the l mount so I need to hit high iso often. I feel I have been getting better pics on my m10r and m10m with easier effort. 

x1d is mostly beautiful camera but god I cannot live with the touch screen focus point adjustment. The touch screen is not as snappy as a smart phone. I always over adjust the focus point. Another thing is that focus is so slow on the 80 I miss focus too often with kids. I also have run into enough glitch that I can ignore. IQ and lens are very nice though. 
 

the 100s’s lens range and bit depth are no worse than what hassy offers. I am sure the colour difference are there but that’s something I can likely live with since I expect I can get more keepers over all with IBIS, multishot, larger lens range.

why fuji cannot man up and release a 907x like their omega concept camera, then my jump to fuji from SL2 and hassy would be trivial. I appreciate the thought that went into the minimalist ux in leica and hasselblad but what pic I produce from these cameras are what dictate my camera choices.

 

 

 

Tried the 907x recently. Stunning camera but it’s best suited for lenses 80mm and wider. Anything longer makes the handling challenging even with the grip. 
The AF speed is also very slow. 
I found if you use Pro Neg Hi on the GFX, this is close to Hassy’s great color science. 

[SJH]

I’ve been delighted with all my current Leica camera’s and gear (M10M, M10R, SL-S and MP) with the exception of the SL2. Initially I used it in a wide ranging set of scenarios and as my first SL body I was initially very pleased. However, as time went by I found myself reaching for my M10P at the time for low light stuff and wishing the AF was a bit better, plus you seemed to have to spend ages customising the AF to each scenario you found yourself in to get the best out of it.

When the SL-S was introduced I sold my SL2 and overall I’m far happier (also with the M10R’s low light performance v the SL2). I was beginning to wonder if the SL2 was going to become the ‘lost child’ as there have been no AF updates in over a year now and I just feel Leica have got themselves into a corner with this one. With the A1 and R5 in similar pricing territory (and the GFX100s for megapixel junkies) you can feel potential SL2 buyers being drawn either way depending on their usage. These 3 camera’s I believe have really disrupted the potential market for Leica with the SL2, which is a shame because it has many great underlying qualities.

Having said all this the SL2 is tantalising close and if Leica are reading this if you can improve the low light performance and AFC (it really doesn’t have to be near A9 or R5 levels) then I think you’ll be back on track, I fear though that they may feel the SL2 and 47mb sensor is a lost cause and that with the SL3 they’ll aim to make the camera more competitive with its contemporaries  at the time of release. Evidence, well you only have to look at the SL-S release with the view that it offered better AF, ISO and video performance plus a major firmware upgrade in the spring was also touted for buyers. Nothing from Leica though regarding their ‘flagship’ and applying the same firmware that’s long overdue.

[Simone_DF]

10 hours ago, Succisa75 said:

Even the big November update for the Lumix line that improved AF quite significantly never came to light from Leica. This is very disheartening and unfortunate. 

You have to give them time. It's not an automatic process. The Panasonic update has to be customized for Leica cameras, and once it's done, it also has to be tested to be sure there's no regression in the camera firmware, and that takes time.

Also in November the Leica team was busy with the launch of the Q2M and of the SL2-S. With these two out of the way, they can now concentrate on the firmware for the SL2 family.

[Simone_DF]

1 hour ago, SJH said:

Having said all this the SL2 is tantalising close and if Leica are reading this if you can improve the low light performance and AFC (it really doesn’t have to be near A9 or R5 levels) then I think you’ll be back on track, I fear though that they may feel the SL2 and 47mb sensor is a lost cause and that with the SL3 they’ll aim to make the camera more competitive with its contemporaries  at the time of release. Evidence, well you only have to look at the SL-S release with the view that it offered better AF, ISO and video performance plus a major firmware upgrade in the spring was also touted for buyers. Nothing from Leica though regarding their ‘flagship’ and applying the same firmware that’s long overdue.

Not releasing the same update for the SL2 would be a commercial suicide and may tarnish Leica's reputation in the long run. In this scenario, who's gonna buy the SL3 at launch knowing it may end up like an SL2 and surpassed within a year by a SL3-S?

[Succisa75]

6 minutes ago, Simone_DF said:

You have to give them time. It's not an automatic process. The Panasonic update has to be customized for Leica cameras, and once it's done, it also has to be tested to be sure there's no regression in the camera firmware, and that takes time.

Also in November the Leica team was busy with the launch of the Q2M and of the SL2-S. With these two out of the way, they can now concentrate on the firmware for the SL2 family.

Can give time but the more time they take the more cameras come out and the less competitive they become. 
 

as of right now there is no timeline to the SL2 getting an AF update but there is for the SL2-S.  The least they can do is make an announcement to keep customers interested as well as potential buyers. 

[Succisa75]

1 hour ago, SJH said:

I’ve been delighted with all my current Leica camera’s and gear (M10M, M10R, SL-S and MP) with the exception of the SL2. Initially I used it in a wide ranging set of scenarios and as my first SL body I was initially very pleased. However, as time went by I found myself reaching for my M10P at the time for low light stuff and wishing the AF was a bit better, plus you seemed to have to spend ages customising the AF to each scenario you found yourself in to get the best out of it.

When the SL-S was introduced I sold my SL2 and overall I’m far happier (also with the M10R’s low light performance v the SL2). I was beginning to wonder if the SL2 was going to become the ‘lost child’ as there have been no AF updates in over a year now and I just feel Leica have got themselves into a corner with this one. With the A1 and R5 in similar pricing territory (and the GFX100s for megapixel junkies) you can feel potential SL2 buyers being drawn either way depending on their usage. These 3 camera’s I believe have really disrupted the potential market for Leica with the SL2, which is a shame because it has many great underlying qualities.

Having said all this the SL2 is tantalising close and if Leica are reading this if you can improve the low light performance and AFC (it really doesn’t have to be near A9 or R5 levels) then I think you’ll be back on track, I fear though that they may feel the SL2 and 47mb sensor is a lost cause and that with the SL3 they’ll aim to make the camera more competitive with its contemporaries  at the time of release. Evidence, well you only have to look at the SL-S release with the view that it offered better AF, ISO and video performance plus a major firmware upgrade in the spring was also touted for buyers. Nothing from Leica though regarding their ‘flagship’ and applying the same firmware that’s long overdue.

Well said.  The SL line doesn’t have the lineage and following like the M, so the loyalty Leica is used to with the M customer base isn’t as strong with this camera system.  Additionally the slow roll out of lenses and updates doesn’t keep customers excited and interested. 

[SJH]

34 minutes ago, Simone_DF said:

Not releasing the same update for the SL2 would be a commercial suicide and may tarnish Leica's reputation in the long run. In this scenario, who's gonna buy the SL3 at launch knowing it may end up like an SL2 and surpassed within a year by a SL3-S?

I couldn’t agree with you more but equally it would appear not saying anything regarding the SL2, alongside the press release for the SL-S’s major firmware update for the spring, strikes me also as commercial suicide. If you could do deliver for the SL2 as well surely you’d say so there and then?

This all leads me to believe Leica just can’t get their head round how they’re really going to develop the SL2/47mb sensor further regarding ISO and AFC. It’s looking more and more like the SL... 2 lemons (ISO and AFC). You can also tell by the fact that the SL-S Spring update has been in the public domain for a while now and the next release regarding major firmware changes is for the ....... wait for it ....... the M10R and M10M for perspective control. Again nothing for the SL2, Leica you are making it pretty clear as to where you see the future for the SL2 now.

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[caissa]

All this steam and vapor ware. The users of the SL2 know that the SL2-S is no replacement for it. So they simply go on using it instead of following this thread. Simply not very interesting.  Of course we wait for a firmware update. We are used to waiting, mainly for Leica lenses. If the Fuji is better (not in my eyes) then simply switch. If the A1 (that nobody has used yet) or the R5 are better ....  no one will stop anybody from switching.

But for me (and probably many other users) there is simply no reason to switch. The new cameras are not so different. Maybe if Canon will finally bring a R5S with 70 or 80 MP then I would replace the old 5DSR by this new camera. It will depend upon the price. (But 8k is just a gimmick, not really interesting). Maybe others replace their A9II by the A1. But despite the hot words written here, I see progress as so small that I am not inclined to change the equipment. (The SL2 plus Leica lenses.) I am simply happy using it. (More than with any camera I used before).

I see that generally the sales numbers are going down. My interpretation is that many see the new cameras not as a big step up, but mainly as small improvements that are currently still too expensive. Nice to have this upgrade, but not really necessary. Maybe if the crisis is over and money more abundant again. Of course there are always users with plenty of money who always buy the latest sh@@.  🤩😷😁

And no, I don’t think Leica has abandoned the SL2 - and the SL3 is still far away, maybe 3 to 4 years.

About excitement. I don’t think Leica users buy their cameras out of excitement. They are often “older semesters” and go to Leica because they are fed up by their current equipment. Excitement is more typical for young inexperienced users that listen to heavy marketing and influencers. Because they are told over and over again this is the best. (Sony, Fuji and Others)

To be honest, if people would switch away, it would be ok for me. Then I hope to be able to get some secondhand lenses or maybe a second SL2 at a low price.

Edited February 1, 2021 by caissa