S4 product recommendation

[alan.y]

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On 1/29/2021 at 1:34 AM, ynp said:

I talked to two Chinese adapter manufacturers and even offered a development budget and access to the lenses to one of them. They see no market in the S-GFX adaptation. After I have spent some time with a GFX 50r camera and the Contax645 lenses,  I lost any interest in those adapters. 

If they gave up on AF and simply made an adapter that could control aperture, would it become more practical? Is the aperture protocol simpler to crack?

I'd pay for such an adapter.

Edited January 30, 2021 by alan.y

[Stuart Richardson]

Hi Bernard,

I know what you mean regarding manual focus on the SL lenses. I agree that it is not as nice as the autofocus, but I do not find any noticeable lag with M or S lenses. Then again, I am not trying to deal with birds in flight or sports etc. On the other hand, I have not found the AF to be imprecise on either the SL or S. With the spot AF fuction it is very accurate, more so than is possible with the naked eye (on the SL). It can be trickier with the S because the AF area is larger, but assuming your object is equidistant and fills the circle, it is very accurate. The problem is mainly that the AF area is so large, so if the thing you are focusing on is not flat, it can be hard to know exactly what the sensor has decided to choose as the point of focus. An example would be a portrait, where clearly the user wants to focus on the eye, but if the eye is small in the AF spot, the camera might choose an eyeglass rim or eyebrow instead. The problem I have had is that the VF in the S is not sufficiently accurate either. On both the S006 and the S3, the AF system has been more accurate than the screen, to the extent that the screen looks slightly blurry at the actual sharpest point. Despite sending the S006 in for calibration, it did not improve. The S3 that I received is even less accurate, so it does need to be recalibrated. When talking to Leica a bit about this, they told me specifically that it was OK for the VF to be a bit off, and the AF and live view are better for precise focus. Not exactly what I had hoped to hear, but that is what they said.

Edited January 30, 2021 by Stuart Richardson

[ynp]

15 hours ago, alan.y said:

If they gave up on AF and simply made an adapter that could control aperture, would it become more practical? Is the aperture protocol simpler to crack?

I'd pay for such an adapter.

I don’t know what is possible. For me it was easier to stay with the S system and use the S and Contax lenses without any problem. 

[BernardC]

22 hours ago, Stuart Richardson said:

With the spot AF fuction it is very accurate, more so than is possible with the naked eye (on the SL).

The problem I have with spot AF is that you need to set the spot, and then move it around if you want to re-compose (or focus on a different part of the frame). It's a lot more work, and it takes your attention away from the image. I much prefer focusing manually by eye, it's faster and the 'spot" is always exactly where you want it to be.

EVF delay is most noticeable with moving subjects, and with time-sensitive subjects. Taking a picture of a drummer is a painful experience, the video is off-sync with the audio, and there's no way to reconcile it. With a direct optical image (rangefinder or viewfinder), you quickly get a feel for shutter delay and learn to trip the shutter 20 milliseconds (or so) before the key moment. The S is a lot slower than the M for that, but you can get used to the delay. With an EVF it's complicated by the fact that you don't see the action until after it's happened, so some moments are lost to time before you can see them forming. Perhaps that's why so many people say that they absolutely need 20 fps bursts.

I think that's why the S is popular in high-end fashion. Not only do you get that big sensor and beautiful rendering, you also have the opportunity to work with models in real time. It's a more satisfying feedback loop. Many will argue that humans don't move that fast, but they blink and twitch and make lots of subtle facial movements that we are very attuned-to. A Gioconda smile doesn't last forever, and there's a reason why Leonardo didn't paint the moment just after.

That's still my main problem with the SL after all these years, and I haven't seen any significant improvement with later cameras such as the A9. You end-up with a very high proportion of blink shots, and "just missed it." You can try to game the system by shooting off-beat and hoping, but the success ratio isn't that high, and it takes you out of the moment. In the end it's much easier to stop torturing yourself, and grab a camera with an optical finder.

What you say about finder blurriness is interesting. I think it comes down to personal preference. I'm lucky to have very little astigmatism in my dominant eye, so perhaps finders look different to me. A friend tells me that the M is the only camera that he can reliably focus in near-darkness.

[Stuart Richardson]

Thanks for explaining. That makes sense. I am not photographing drummers, nor too many people being highly active, so I have not run into those issues.

Eyesight can certainly make a huge difference! I am still lucky on that front...I mostly use film cameras that are fully manual and have no issue with them. In my case, I think it has to do with the fact that a focusing screen in the S has to be extremely precisely located to ensure focusing accuracy at such high resolution. It either got knocked out during shipping, or their tolerance is a bit higher than mine. In any case, we'll see how it is after they repair it. Right now it is fine for composition, but useless for focusing.

[davidmknoble]

Interesting discussion here.  I still play with a Nikon F2, which is an SLR.  So, just like the S, the tolerance for focusing is based on how well calibrated the mirror is.  Once out of alignment, the focusing in the viewfinder is not focusing on the sensor.  Yet, I’ve never had the S007 get out of alignment.   Even more, using the S is an art and each tool has its niche.  For me, the S007 is my landscape system.  The lenses are some of the best out there.  Why? because the S lenses are incredibly low distortion and meant to be looked through.  The SL lenses, while technically great, are not viewed through an optical viewfinder.  Any flaws in the SL lenses are fixed through software before viewing in the EVF or taking an image on the sensor.  The S lenses capture great color with little adjustment and are heavy because of the number of lens elements and diameter of openings.  Comparing the M 24mm Summilux ASPH f/1.4 to the M 24mm Elmar f/3.4, the Summilux is really heavy.  Same for S lenses compared to Hassy and Contax, f/stop dictates diameter, which is size of glass. 

Leica cannot make changes to the throat size by increasing the sensor size (mm) because existing lenses would no longer be usable.  Too much has been invested in the S lens stable and the SL lenses are not finished yet (wide angle primes).  I have the SL2 and use the 16-35 and 90-280 SL lenses, but fill in the middle with the S lenses.  The SL has great stabilization and high pixel counts, but the dynamic range of the S007 is just better.

IMHO, the SL2 is a high pixel count, mirrorless for fast action photography and lenses and focus to support it.  For absolute, high dynamic range, larger light gathering pixels, the medium format S delivers image quality hard to beat.

This is a facebook sized jpeg, sorry smaller resolution, but click to see full res.

David.

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Edited February 9, 2021 by davidmknoble

[aksclix]

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14 minutes ago, davidmknoble said:

Interesting discussion here.  I still play with a Nikon F2, which is an SLR.  So, just like the S, the tolerance for focusing is based on how well calibrated the mirror is.  Once out of alignment, the focusing in the viewfinder is not focusing on the sensor.  Yet, I’ve never had the S007 get out of alignment.   Even more, using the S is an art and each tool has its niche.  For me, the S007 is my landscape system.  The lenses are some of the best out there.  Why? because the S lenses are incredibly low distortion and meant to be looked through.  The SL lenses, while technically great, are not viewed through an optical viewfinder.  Any flaws in the SL lenses are fixed through software before viewing in the EVF or taking an image on the sensor.  The S lenses capture great color with little adjustment and are heavy because of the number of lens elements and diameter of openings.  Comparing the M 24mm Summilux ASPH f/1.4 to the M 24mm Elmar f/3.4, the Summilux is really heavy.  Same for S lenses compared to Hassy and Contax, f/stop dictates diameter, which is size of glass. 

Leica cannot make changes to the throat size by increasing the sensor size (mm) because existing lenses would no longer be usable.  Too much has been invested in the S lens stable and the SL lenses are not finished yet (wide angle primes).  I have the SL2 and use the 16-35 and 90-280 SL lenses, but fill in the middle with the S lenses.  The SL has great stabilization and high pixel counts, but the dynamic range of the S007 is just better.

IMHO, the SL2 is a high pixel count, mirrorless for fast action photography and lenses and focus to support it.  For absolute, high dynamic range, larger light gathering pixels, the medium format S delivers image quality hard to beat.

This is a facebook sized jpeg, sorry smaller resolution, but click to see full res.

David.

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Truly gorgeous colors!! Thanks for sharing.. 

[Miamistv]

On 1/29/2021 at 12:25 AM, LeicaR10 said:

More interesting ideas and comments on what an S4 should be or not.  I always find many comments akin to people saying they want to own a Ferrari but want the price to be at $10K so they can "own one".   IMO, what many are asking is an existing or future SL-X.  Why bother with making the S system something it is not nor will be unless it is totally redesigned?  Leica knows about the desire for a mirrorless S and based on my correspondence with them, something is in the works.  From what I have read, S photographers simply love the brilliant optical view finder (to include me) and would only consider a EVF ONLY IF it were better than the present and superb OVF.   Leica knows this as well.  The S lenses are simply superb and clearly render in a cinematic way with no manipulation. The other brands depend on optical manipulation because they cut costs.  Instead of wishing/wanting for more, more, more...I submit either photographers who want more or features they describe in the SL or other brand MF cameras, simply go buy the other brands and "be happy".  In the meantime, photographers who actually own (not wannabes) and use the S system, know its capabilities, do get out and strive to create photographic masterpieces, that again, make the viewer;  Stop, Look, Think and Feel something about that moment in time.  r/ Mark

I agree with LeicaR10s comments.   The OVF is a pleasure to use and one reason I love using the S system.  The body with all lenses is well balanced and needs nothing.  The resolution on all iterations outputs beautifully.   The simplicity of the system and the glass is the reason purchase a Leica.   They result in exceptional image quality along with your brain.  Your brain is allowed to create the output precisely as a result of avoiding most of the useless operations that exist outside of German production because they look good on a spec sheet.  They were brilliant with the S3 because the upgrades directly impact image quality and they did not delete or mess up items that are great, like the body and OVF.  Most of the upgrades suggested in this thread one can attain with an SL, which I wish Leica did not produce.    The M is the soul of Leica and the S possesses part of that quality.  The SL is a brilliant exceptional camera with biting cutting edge sharpness.  Many other manufacturers produce those cameras and have for decades.  They don’t produce the colors, separation and pleasant transition to out of focus areas that we get through an M and S system.  The only things I would like on the next edition would be in body image stabilization, a better rear screen, longer appearing depth of field display on the top deck, and updated media slots.   Please do not change the body or the perfect sealed stainless mount.  One counts on Leica for lenses that can be used for a lifetime.  I have been using M lenses for over 40 years and purchased over 40k of S glass which of course I want to use with the next version if I am fortunate enough to be able to attain.  Wishing everyone well  

 

[ynp]

7 hours ago, Miamistv said:

The only things I would like on the next edition would be in body image stabilization, a better rear screen, longer appearing depth of field display on the top deck, and updated media slots.   Please do not change the body or the perfect sealed stainless mount.

+1

[GiorgioNuvolari]

+1 

I am looking to get into the S system as well, and for all the aforementioned reasons it seems to me that it stands unique. It would be great to see the enabling technology brought up to date while preserving the qualities that set it apart from the other MF offerings. Here's to hoping! 

Best, GN

[ZHNL]

Before S4, maybe a S3p with better LCD with tilt function? I don’t know you guys’ take on this for landscape but it become a real issue for me for tripod shooting make me even thinking about swap SL2 with Panasonic camera. 

I also heard from people I trust that S4 will be MILC. 
 

Edited April 19, 2021 by ZHNL

[Jeff S]

12 minutes ago, ZHNL said:

I also heard from people I trust that S4 will be MILC. 
 

So, new lens line?

Jeff

[ZHNL]

18 minutes ago, Jeff S said:

So, new lens line?

Jeff

I would think so and S glass can be adapted for transition period. This is unconfirmed info though.  I do know that S4 is under development because I got multiple answers from separate Leica dealers.  This is more credible rumor than MILC I feel. 

Finger crossed. 

[ynp]

3 hours ago, ZHNL said:

I also heard from people I trust that S4 will be MILC. 

Than my S3 will be a classic. 😉

[tom0511]

I also don't know if I want a mirrorless S. All I want is a  better AF system for the S4 and IBIS.

However I also believe it will go in direction mirrorless. Which arguments will a mirrorless Leica S have over Hase, Fuji and so on. Yes, maybe a little better lenses.

And here is a real dream: Give us a medium format rangefinder! The most compact medium format lenses. This would be cool.

[Stuart Richardson]

I think the S3 is pretty much as far as they can take the current bodies and lenses. Not so much that they cannot stand up to higher resolution, but that they cannot focus accurately enough and things that they could fit in the body shell. It is interesting to note that there really are not many SLR bodies that are super high resolution. You pretty much have only the Phase One cameras, the Canon 5DSR and Nikon D850. I suspect that it is difficult to achieve the focus accuracy required in an SLR format. At least in the case of the S3, the phase detect mechanism works ok, but it is far too large and imprecise for the super high resolution. It was even a bit borderline at 37mp, but at 64 you see if the sensor is even very slightly off.

With the mirror mechanism in place, I think it is highly unlikely that they will be able to provide any kind of stabilization, just due to size restrictions. If there had been that much free space to begin with, I doubt the camera would be as big as it is. Same goes for new screens...if Leica was going to truly update that side of the camera, they probably would have done so in the S3.

From what I have heard, I would agree with ZHNL in saying that what I have heard from people in a position to know is that the S4 will be mirrorless. I have not heard anything about when, how or what will happen with the lenses etc. It seems inevitable that they make a drastic change, either by cutting the product line entirely, or bringing it up to date and to a place where it can effectively compete for new users. I agree that there is much to love about the S in its current form factor, but any neutral observer must also concede that the system is not exactly thriving...

[Stuart Richardson]

As for what I think may happen...I would suspect that Leica will push their strengths and target market for the S. I think they will continue to market central shutter lenses and try to sell the S as a camera for professionals, particularly in fashion and in location work. I also think they will try to make it more of an elevated SL camera, giving it the ability to "rule" all the Leica lens lines. Imagine a high megapixel, extremely versatile mirrorless camera that can take big S lenses for high res shoots or studio work, but then can take M or L mount lenses natively for use in special cases or when portability or weight was more of a priority. If they use the same level sensor "crop" performance could be like the SL2 or M10R with 40-50mp. That could be more appealing to a wide audience, as it would open things open to a much wider group. I am sure that Leica has taken notice to people using M lenses on the Fuji GFX100.

Perhaps this is not the direction they will take the system in, but it seems logical to me based on the market and Leica's drive towards uniformity and integration among their camera line.

Edited April 19, 2021 by Stuart Richardson

[davidmknoble]

3 hours ago, ZHNL said:

Before S4, maybe a S3p with better LCD with tilt function? I don’t know you guys’ take on this for landscape but it become a real issue for me for tripod shooting make me even thinking about swap SL2 with Panasonic camera. 
 

 I have never used a tilt LCD and have had no issues with tripod work and landscape work without the tilt.  For me personally, I prefer the less is more method. The weather sealing is better without a tilt LCD and there is one less thing to break.  The only thing I use the LCD for (besides menu changes) is to see that I didn't grossly over or under expose something in the field and to see a reasonable histogram.  I may zoom in and check some critical focus, but that is it. I personally would dislike any kind of detachable LCD, but that is me.

I do have the right angle finder, but I've only used occasionally and mostly for the (infrequent) macro shots.

In reality, the S series was first for studio professionals and second, because of the size, a great landscape body and walk about body, but still does not remain a long lens documentary quick shoot body.  If you read some of the late Erwin Puts works, he showed an image of a 250mm or so (maybe 280mm) for the S series that never got put into production.  Because the lenses still have a ridiculous amount of room to go in contrast detail, I doubt Leica will discontinue the lens lineup just for a compact mirrorless body. 

Many, including me, love the brightness of the mirror system and the open f/stops on the S lenses make for fine focusing as well as real color and brightness evaluation.  Anytime it goes through a computer before you can see it, there are potential problems with color, lag, etc.  Even my SL2 has a lagging EVF when I'm shooting a sunrise with a 6 stop ND filter and 8 second exposures.  My S007 has zero lag. I suppose EVF technology is getting better and an EVF on an S body with no mirror is probably easier from a CLA standpoint.  

Second, I don't know, but it seems possible that a mirrorless body could be the same size.  After all, the sensor is in a straight line with the lens.  No reason to make the body a different size.  And if the mirror is removed, then it would seem the lenses would still work.

I'm also not sure I agree with the premise that a mirrored system could not focus say a 100mp 35 x 40 sensor.  It seems that 1 pixel to a billion pixels, if the 64mp system can be focused with a mirror, then the tolerances are there for higher resolution.  The wafer thin plane for digital has been there since the beginning.  That is one reason I like to shoot some old lenses with film, because of the thickness of the focus point.

As an aside, I've spent a good bit of time lately with my R8 and some old R glass. Until I really spent time with the S007 I thought the R8 was too clunky as I compared it to the MP and M3.  However, I've really grown to love it next to the S because it is so similar.  And all the R glass works great on my SL2, so why not?  For that matter, so does the S glass.  It seems like Leica took the R8 / R9 and split it into a hybrid - Leica S for high res intentional shooting and Leica SL for quick and long lens shooting.

Sorry to ramble....

 

[davidmknoble]

Jeff, just musing, but couldn't the S body just have the mirror removed and keep the same lenses?

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[John Smith]

42 minutes ago, Stuart Richardson said:

As for what I think may happen...I would suspect that Leica will push their strengths and target market for the S. I think they will continue to market central shutter lenses and try to sell the S as a camera for professionals, particularly in fashion and in location work. I also think they will try to make it more of an elevated SL camera, giving it the ability to "rule" all the Leica lens lines. Imagine a high megapixel, extremely versatile mirrorless camera that can take big S lenses for high res shoots or studio work, but then can take M or L mount lenses natively for use in special cases or when portability or weight was more of a priority. If they use the same level sensor "crop" performance could be like the SL2 or M10R with 40-50mp. That could be more appealing to a wide audience, as it would open things open to a much wider group. I am sure that Leica has taken notice to people using M lenses on the Fuji GFX100.

Perhaps this is not the direction they will take the system in, but it seems logical to me based on the market and Leica's drive towards uniformity and integration among their camera line.

Stuart, I think you are right. As much as LF forum members swoon over the S, the DSLR is not the future. The S system was fantastic (and still is in some respects) ten or twelve years ago. Yet, you don't see Peter Karbe doing presentations on S lenses like you see him doing with SL, M, and even TL lenses. I would bet that the S4 will be a Texas-sized SL that continues Leica's ProFormat. Traditional S users could keep on using the older lenses with an adapter or move on to Leica's new lens offerings which would probably come close to the new Summicrons in performance. The system would also benefit from adapters for the SL and M lenses. I traded my S stuff in for some M lenses, including a Noctilux, and you really can't beat the interchangeability with the SL. That was a really smart move by Leica. The waiting list for a mirrorless S4 that allows for S (old and new), SL, and M lenses would be a whole lot longer than the one for the latest 35mm APO.

Edited April 19, 2021 by John Smith