250swb Posted August 10, 2020 Share #101 Posted August 10, 2020 Advertisement (gone after registration) That clears that up, again. Thank you Scott. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted August 10, 2020 Posted August 10, 2020 Hi 250swb, Take a look here Got my m10-R today. Sending it back tomorrow. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Cobram Posted August 10, 2020 Share #102 Posted August 10, 2020 Dear All, First please read my comment carefully as I don't want to be misunderstood and labeled as racist, hater etc. Today is very modern to not tell the truth but instead just categorise someones opinion as "far right" or "far left" without thinking... I have been using Leica products for a decade. Been through M9 corrosion issue, Q lens problems,... and still think they offer the best optics as well as nice (not best) cameras. First: OP is 100% right to send the camera back. All comments regarding self made repairs are silly. Rolex watch or Ferarri with repair kit included 🙂 Second: IMHO Leica quality is decreasing as any other product of other brands in last years. Things are no longer made to last but to buy and through away. Third: service times are way too long. If you only posess one M camera and wait 3-6 months for repair this means you are forced to become iPhone photographer every few years 🙂 Totally un-acceptable. In Europe car makers land you a car during service operations so you are not left alone without any transport means. Fourth: I'm R&D engineer, working for a German company in one of its Europe centers. Germany and german quality (and here please don't think I'm racist) is no longer what we knew in the past. German industry pay way more attention to outsourcing from (mostly) China than to final quality of their products. Every year I see more and more products with labels: "german quality control", "German design", "German engineering" with added german national flag colors to make you think and perceive product as of "old days" german quality. Similar is with cars. I think I will never buy another german "made" car. So many problems for such a high price. Chinese components assembled together in Munchen or Nurnberg 🙂 Fifth: I personally think every sector and every country do the same - Germany is not alone here. That's why we have to buy new clothes almost every year (decrease in quality), new phone, etc. I just think we should look at the new reality and admit there is no country, company, product or brand not affected by globalisation and cost reduction --> which of course translates sooner or later also in lower quality products. 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikep996 Posted August 10, 2020 Share #103 Posted August 10, 2020 Sadly, quite correct! The reality is, that, in the US, for example, NOBODY would pay for a totally US-produced camera, TV, clothes, or pretty much anything else. It would cost at least 2-3x (or more) what those products currently cost in the marketplace. As Cobram noted, (using the US, again) it's quite politically correct to TALK about how products should be totally produced in the USA, from mining the ore to shipment of the final product but it's a silly notion nowadays and would be a fast road to bankruptcy/failure. Apple designs all their products in the USA but if they built them in the US,, no one would could afford them...well other than folks who buy Leicas! (sorry, couldn't resist that). So locally produced mass-sales products in so-called "1st world countries" are a thing of the past (unless we're talking about firearms in the US)! Couldn't resist that either... As has often been observed, digital cameras are throwaways, if not for function/perceived limitations alone (MP), then for repair-ability. Basically, you may not be able to repair a 15 year old M8 because you can't get the necessary parts but you can repair a 65+ year old M3! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flyer Posted August 10, 2020 Share #104 Posted August 10, 2020 On 8/5/2020 at 6:07 AM, scott kirkpatrick said: You're right. I hadn't looked at his pic. My M9 spent it's entire life as an I I 9 for this reason. I used to tape over all the identifying information, but life's too short. You must be kidding, 7k for what's supposed to be the Rolls Royce of cameras and your OK with damaged goods. Leica make a video all about how they are made by hand and people wearing white gloves etc. Maybe he should send it back to Leica and they will charge him £400 to fix it. We wouldn't accept a dink in a new car so what's different. However it the retailers issue not Leica's. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matlock Posted August 10, 2020 Share #105 Posted August 10, 2020 1 hour ago, 250swb said: That clears that up, again. Thank you Scott. I had already commented on this, but it doesn't address the inconsistences in the OP and his rather strange comments. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wizard Posted August 10, 2020 Share #106 Posted August 10, 2020 vor 1 Stunde schrieb Cobram: Similar is with cars......Chinese components assembled together in Munchen or Nurnberg 🙂 While there is a car assembly plant in Munich, I am not aware of ANY cars being assembled in Nuernberg, regardless of manufacturer. So what are you talking about? And while we're at it. there are many people moaning about the quality of todays cars, with the steel not being as thick as it used to be etc. While the steel employed to make cars may have been thicker 20, 30 or 40 years ago, that thicker steel did not prevent cars to just fall apart due to corrosion issues within 6 to 10 years (I am talking about countries were salt is used in the winter to keep roads clear of snow and ice). Nowadays, 15 year and older old car often looks like new despite being driven in the winter. I can still remember my first cars and how they drove. Current cars are light years ahead of those cars in just about any aspect (corrsosion resistance, driveability, fuel economy, safety, comfort, you name it). While I enjoyed reparing my own cars when I was young, there isn't anything to repair with modern cars, they just do not break down. Regular servicing (oil change etc.) is all they need. Same with modern motorcycles. And I keep my cars and motorcycles for 10 years and longer and rack up about 250,000 km on each car during those 10 years of ownership. Of course you may have bad luck, and that is true for any product, but in general cars and many other products have never been better than they are right now. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cobram Posted August 10, 2020 Share #107 Posted August 10, 2020 Advertisement (gone after registration) Dear wizard You are right: my mistake. It is not Nurnberg but Nuremberg (MAN). 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matlock Posted August 10, 2020 Share #108 Posted August 10, 2020 9 minutes ago, wizard said: Of course you may have bad luck, and that is true for any product, but in general cars and many other products have never been better than they are right now. And that is true of modern Leica's (and other makes). Many people talk of their 1930s car still going strong but it has probably been rebuilt many times and parts have to be made specially as there was no standardisation in those days. Some very early Leica cameras are still going strong but are probably a bit like Triger's broom (or George Washington's axe if you are from the USA). However we are not really comparing like for like and things have moved on since the predominately film days. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
250swb Posted August 10, 2020 Share #109 Posted August 10, 2020 2 hours ago, Cobram said: First: OP is 100% right to send the camera back. All comments regarding self made repairs are silly. Rolex watch or Ferarri with repair kit included 🙂 A bit of white paint is in no way equivalent to a Ferrari or Rolex, but this is the way the internet works, exaggerate for effect. Some of the suggestions for how to effect a repair are clumsy or absurd, but at least the ability to quantify the problem is still evident, instead of rendering themselves helpless faced with a small problem it shows the instinct to do something practical is still in the gene pool. It's obvious there are three choices to make, send the camera back and wait, or use it and send it back later within the warranty period and cover any other problems that may appear all in one go, or fix it and use it. None of them are silly ideas, the only thing that is silly is thinking there is only one solution. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cobram Posted August 10, 2020 Share #110 Posted August 10, 2020 1 hour ago, 250swb said: A bit of white paint is in no way equivalent to a Ferrari or Rolex, but this is the way the internet works, exaggerate for effect. Some of the suggestions for how to effect a repair are clumsy or absurd, but at least the ability to quantify the problem is still evident, instead of rendering themselves helpless faced with a small problem it shows the instinct to do something practical is still in the gene pool. It's obvious there are three choices to make, send the camera back and wait, or use it and send it back later within the warranty period and cover any other problems that may appear all in one go, or fix it and use it. None of them are silly ideas, the only thing that is silly is thinking there is only one solution. Don't want to argue here but can you answer me this question: why are second hand Leica cameras valued also according to paint damage/loss? Why even declare mint, as new, excellent etc condition? And why different price tags for mint as new camera comparing to excellent camera with minor paint damage/scratches? I do think cosmetic problems affect resale value. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rivi1969 Posted August 10, 2020 Share #111 Posted August 10, 2020 (edited) 7 hours ago, thedwp said: I don’t own a Tesla, I was making a point. So... and you’re right about how people talk about Leica owners. It gets annoying...it’s a choice we all make, and some sacrifice more than other to own them. I apologize for the misunderstanding. The ”I bought this or that with my hard-earned money” argument appears pretty often here. Agree, for example, a friend of mine sold his car to buy a RED camera to shoot his ad commercials, now he takes the bus every day but people only see a guy who bought a 30K video camera, who probably is rich. -Very cool Instagram btw!- Edited August 10, 2020 by rivi1969 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rivi1969 Posted August 10, 2020 Share #112 Posted August 10, 2020 6 hours ago, Cobram said: Every year I see more and more products with labels: "german quality control", "German design", "German engineering" with added german national flag colors to make you think and perceive product as German quality...” Correct. That’s why many Leica cameras are actually made in Portugal but still carry the engraving ”Made in Germany”. Is just about perceived value. How much money most people would pay for a Leica M10 ”Made in Portugal”? My old R3 (or was the R4 🤔) had the ”Made in Portugal” just as many lenses had the ”Made in Canada” legend. Leica understood that and just as the Swiss do with their watches, through some legal mambo jambo they manage to keep the Made in Germany even if the M10 and SL are actually made at their Portugal factory, along with many lenses and NONE mention Portugal anywhere. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pedaes Posted August 10, 2020 Share #113 Posted August 10, 2020 6 minutes ago, rivi1969 said: actually made in Portugal Leica make no secret about the importance of the Portuguese facility, and that complete sets of M parts go to Wetzlar for final assembly and adjustment. Of course many of the electronics come from outside suppliers, as did parts of the M film cameras going back to the beginning. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
T25UFO Posted August 10, 2020 Share #114 Posted August 10, 2020 8 hours ago, thedwp said: I don’t own a Tesla, I was making a point. Well that's a relief . . . lots of comment on Tesla forums about poor quality . . . makes Leica look good 🙂 Funny how some things just escalate. Six pages and counting about a bit of missing paint. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matlock Posted August 10, 2020 Share #115 Posted August 10, 2020 30 minutes ago, T25UFO said: Funny how some things just escalate. Six pages and counting about a bit of missing paint. Think of all the pictures that could have been taken on a fully functioning camera whilst all these posts took place. 😊 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted August 10, 2020 Share #116 Posted August 10, 2020 3 minutes ago, Matlock said: Think of all the pictures that could have been taken on a fully functioning camera whilst all these posts took place. 😊 He wasn’t happy with the pics either (last sentence in the original post). Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rivi1969 Posted August 10, 2020 Share #117 Posted August 10, 2020 (edited) 59 minutes ago, pedaes said: Leica make no secret about the importance of the Portuguese facility, and that complete sets of M parts go to Wetzlar for final assembly and adjustment. Of course many of the electronics come from outside suppliers, as did parts of the M film cameras going back to the beginning. Some of the M bodies and the SL are made in Portugal, not just random pieces. I know, it hurts. But they are not actually MADE IN Germany. Edited August 10, 2020 by rivi1969 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdlaing Posted August 10, 2020 Share #118 Posted August 10, 2020 To be clear.........pieces of them are made in Portugal. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matlock Posted August 10, 2020 Share #119 Posted August 10, 2020 8 minutes ago, Jeff S said: He wasn’t happy with the pics either (last sentence in the original post). Jeff True, but he said: “after the few side by side images I saw with my m10-p, I may push pause on getting another R for a while.” But also “to be fair I had it in hand barely an hour.” 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matlock Posted August 10, 2020 Share #120 Posted August 10, 2020 1 minute ago, jdlaing said: To be clear.........pieces of them are made in Portugal. As I understand from Leica, they are made in Portugal with final assembly and finishing carried out in Germany. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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