M10R

[Robert Blanko]

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According to dxomark, D850 and Q2 are almost on par as far as noise is concerned: https://www.dxomark.com/Cameras/Compare/Side-by-side/Nikon-D850-versus-Leica-M10-versus-Leica-Q2___1177_1207_1299 (cf. clicking on measurements, snr18).

 

If the M10R actually arrives, I have no reasonable doubt that it’s performance in said respect will not be worse...

Edited July 7, 2020 by Robert Blanko
Added brackets

[Anakronox]

3 hours ago, Gateway77 said:

But I have to admit the image quality with the Q2 sensor can be stunning and so I'm sure the M10R will be amazing - in talented hands.  

I'm with you on this.  In the right light, the Q2 produces stunning images.  I'm not debating the quality of the lens - only pointing out that *for my personal tastes* I don't care for the high ISO performance of its sensor.

[Anakronox]

3 hours ago, onasj said:

I'm cautiously optimistic that the high-ISO performance of the M10-R will be at least as good, if not better, than that of the M10/M10-P, despite the significant increase in resolution (24 vs 41 MP).  Shouldn't be long now!

I'd love to have the M10-R, but I'm not sure I can justify the cost since I shoot primarily with the M10 Monochrom.  My M10 sometimes feels neglected...

[tom0511]

vor 20 Stunden schrieb Anakronox:

Considering I own a Q2, these ARE in fact my experiences with it.  I cannot enjoy how noisy it is at 1250 ISO and above.  I had slightly better results with my D850, but also did not care for its noise patterns at higher ISO.  
 

I also shoot other “high end” cameras - M10, M10M, and Fuji GFX 50R.  All of these are well within my taste for how they treat noise at ISO 1600+

Besides high ISO noise I find other factors very important as well (I shoot  maybe 15% at higher ISO, but 85 % at lower or mid range ISO), (specially with a camera where I can open the lens up to f1.7). dynamic range and color for example. 

 

 

Edited July 8, 2020 by tom0511

[M11 for me]

vor 11 Stunden schrieb Robert Blanko:

According to dxomark, D850 and Q2 are almost on par as far as noise is concerned: https://www.dxomark.com/Cameras/Compare/Side-by-side/Nikon-D850-versus-Leica-M10-versus-Leica-Q2___1177_1207_1299 (cf. clicking on measurements, snr18).

 

If the M10R actually arrives, I have no reasonable doubt that it’s performance in said respect will not be worse...

And the most interesting DXO result is that even in the pixel-peeping "screen"-mode the D850 is plus minus zhe same level as the Q2. But it is correct to only compare the "print"-mode as this one does not refer to one single pixel. The whole image at the same size as another image (print-mode) is the relevant value.

I follow the discussion here but can not see any problem with the Q2 compared to other top ranked cameras.

[onasj]

All these cameras have good high-ISO performance—virtually all “full-frame 35 mm” modern digital cameras perform well at ISO values in the low thousands. The distinctions measured by Bill Claff (and other websites) help differentiate good vs great vs hard-to-believe-amazing (e.g., the M10M) high-ISO performance.  

[tom.w.bn]

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The High-Iso performance of M10M is useless for those who want colour images. I shoot a lot b/w film at daylight. Nighttime is colour for me.

I hope that lots of used M10 will fill the market after the M10R is launched.

[Anakronox]

7 hours ago, tom0511 said:

Besides high ISO noise I find other factors very important as well (I shoot  maybe 15% at higher ISO, but 85 % at lower or mid range ISO), (specially with a camera where I can open the lens up to f1.7). dynamic range and color for example. 

 

 

I do about 65-75% of my shooting at night, so great high-ISO performance is very important, even with my Summiluxes.  When Moscow gets dark, it gets DARK. 

[tom0511]

vor 2 Minuten schrieb Anakronox:

I do about 65-75% of my shooting at night, so great high-ISO performance is very important, even with my Summiluxes.  When Moscow gets dark, it gets DARK. 

Clearly different requirements. If you do so much photography in dark light a SL2 with IBIS could also be very interesting? ..Just saw you have the M10M, so  you should be served well at high ISO anyways.

Edited July 8, 2020 by tom0511

[Anakronox]

5 minutes ago, tom0511 said:

Clearly different requirements. If you do so much photography in dark light a SL2 with IBIS could also be very interesting? ..Just saw you have the M10M, so  you should be served well at high ISO anyways.

Exactly.  The M10 and M10M fit how I shoot much better.  IBIS and a 1/125 or 1/250 shutter speed at slightly lower ISO could be interesting, but I’d hate to sacrifice the rangefinder just to get it.  There are options for just about everyone though, which is always good.  We’d live in a truly boring world if not!

[LBJ2]

4 minutes ago, Anakronox said:

I do about 65-75% of my shooting at night, so great high-ISO performance is very important, even with my Summiluxes.  When Moscow gets dark, it gets DARK. 

When I upgraded to the 61MP Sony, the high resolution resulted in a more visible/distinct noise pattern aka a higher resolution noise pattern ha ha. So it looked like it had more noise than previous 42MP cameras. Between the two cameras I prefer the 24MP M10 for lower light/higher ISO work. Let's see how Leica handles in camera noise processing with the expected 40MP M10-R, otherwise I expect we will see a more distinct noise pattern compared to the 24MP M10. 

[Anakronox]

1 hour ago, LBJ2 said:

When I upgraded to the 61MP Sony, the high resolution resulted in a more visible/distinct noise pattern aka a higher resolution noise pattern ha ha. So it looked like it had more noise than previous 42MP cameras. Between the two cameras I prefer the 24MP M10 for lower light/higher ISO work. Let's see how Leica handles in camera noise processing with the expected 40MP M10-R, otherwise I expect we will see a more distinct noise pattern compared to the 24MP M10. 

This has been my experience with 45+ megapixel full frame cameras thus far, with the exception of the M10 Monochrom.  I suspect that’s due to its lack of a Bayer filter, but I reserve the right to be wrong.  

[farnz]

2 minutes ago, Anakronox said:

This has been my experience with 45+ megapixel full frame cameras thus far, with the exception of the M10 Monochrom.  I suspect that’s due to its lack of a Bayer filter, but I reserve the right to be wrong.  

Cramming 45+ or 61 million photodiodes onto the same 36 x 24 mm sensor will generate much more heat than doing the same with 24 photodiodes and heat generates noise in sensors.  The M10M's absence of a Bayer Matrix and anti-aliasing filter probably means less 'insulation' so the heat can more easily escape through the cover glass.  Cooler CMOS sensor = less noise.

Pete.

[Robert Blanko]

vor einer Stunde schrieb farnz:

Cramming 45+ or 61 million photodiodes onto the same 36 x 24 mm sensor will generate much more heat than doing the same with 24 photodiodes and heat generates noise in sensors.  The M10M's absence of a Bayer Matrix and anti-aliasing filter probably means less 'insulation' so the heat can more easily escape through the cover glass.  Cooler CMOS sensor = less noise.

Pete.

Could be, but I would expect that the very obvious main improvement simply results from the fact that the absence of the red, blue and green filter, respectively, in front of the individual pixel results in collecting more of the available photons, reportedly about factor 2. Thus, the signal-to-noise ratio should roughly improve by a factor of 2 already without considering any (potential additional) effects due to reduced heating.

[farnz]

2 hours ago, Robert Blanko said:

Could be, but I would expect that the very obvious main improvement simply results from the fact that the absence of the red, blue and green filter, respectively, in front of the individual pixel results in collecting more of the available photons, reportedly about factor 2. Thus, the signal-to-noise ratio should roughly improve by a factor of 2 already without considering any (potential additional) effects due to reduced heating.

Agreed.

Pete.

[helged]

Reduced generation of heat/improved heat dissipation was one of the Key improvements of the S3 sensor (contributing to max exposure of 8 min, for instance). This advance is possibly transferred to other high-res sensors, like M10M and M10-R.

https://www.reddotforum.com/content/2018/09/photokina-2018-the-leica-s3/

[yggdra.omega]

 

Hmmm....

 

[budjames]

After reading the preliminary specs on the new M10R, I was disappointed that there was no mention of a M10P-type quiet shutter, touch LCD screen or electronic level.

The new higher-resolution sensor sounds nice, but I hope the low-light performance and noise is not a step back from the current M10.

It seems that these features should be standard on any new M model.

Regards,
Bud James

Please check out my fine art and travel photography at www.budjames.photography or on Instagram at www.instagram.com/budjamesphoto.

[scott kirkpatrick]

Why are you expecting these steps back?.  You may be reading too much into the Nokeshita typescript.  The most natural new product for the M line would be to take the improvements that the line has brought to market so far -- quieter shutter, some more onboard sensors, a 40 MPx chip technology -- all done without needing to go to new batteries or a bigger body.  And slap a Bayer filter on top.  The chip technology became available to the designers in Wetzlar sometime last year, The folks working on the S3 seem to have done a fine job on delivering colors and dynamic range improvements, The chip is working in the M10M so all that remained to be done is to tune and test colors for its use in an M10-P platform.  

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[onasj]

2 hours ago, budjames said:

After reading the preliminary specs on the new M10R, I was disappointed that there was no mention of a M10P-type quiet shutter, touch LCD screen or electronic level.

The new higher-resolution sensor sounds nice, but I hope the low-light performance and noise is not a step back from the current M10.

It seems that these features should be standard on any new M model.

Regards,
Bud James

Please check out my fine art and travel photography at www.budjames.photography or on Instagram at www.instagram.com/budjamesphoto.

The quiet shutter, touch screen, or electronic level aren't listed in the Technical Specifications of either the M10-P or the M10-M either. For example, see the M10-M technical specs here: https://us.leica-camera.com/content/download/176075/4753145/version/20/file/20050__M10Mono_technData_en.pdf

I would be very surprised if Leica went backwards with these three items in the M10-R. I think the M10-R will be identical to an M10-M with color, possibly higher dynamic range/better high-ISO performance, a red dot on the front, and no engraving on the top.  Which, other than IBIS, has everything I want in a digital M (not caring that much about the dot or engraving)!

Edited July 11, 2020 by onasj