Best 7artisans M-mount Lenses?

[carbon_dragon]

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When these lenses first appeared, I realized that I had never even considered that lenses could be out of calibration with rangefinders. Mostly I took landscapes at f/5.6 or f/8 and it was never a problem. The whole f/1.1 (or faster) thing is just kind of a fun new thing for me. I'd always considered the Noctilux as ONLY something you used to compensate for darkness, not as a tool for depth of field. 

[Rodrigo castillo]

On 4/22/2020 at 5:34 PM, james.liam said:

Interesting analyses and thorough. 
Way I look at it is that if I’ve moved to the M platform I’d rather shoot Leica, Zeiss or Voigtländer. 

I prefer more durable, lasting builds...and personally, if offered a viable option I’d rather not be spending my money on PRC products nowadays.
If economy Is the motive, the Voigtländers are built to superb optical & mechanical standards. 

I know this is an old thread, but this comment caught my attention.  I could understand it from leica purism and if they say if I switch to the Leica M system it is to use only leica lenses.  I can understand that.  But I switched to the M system to use Leica and Zeiss and Voitglander lenses but no, never a Chinese one ..??? I understand that the Japanese company Voitglander has been on the market for a long time ...  and has validated their products….  but a few years ago many said the same about a Japanese car and you see….  therefore my question is whether the judgment of this comment is based on a direct experience about the quality of Chinese glasses or just a prejudice because they are Chinese and cheap….  I have tried some and I can say that the build quality at least in a couple of years seems fantastic and its optical quality although not comparable to last generation Leica lenses (of course) if comparable or even better than some Voitglander and even older leicas.  What is a fact and I admit it is that it is not a Leica, and it will not look elegant in your camera if you look closely until you read the words 7Artisan or TTartisan.  As Ken Rockwell would say about the TT artisan 50mm 1.4 (https://www.kenrockwell.com/tech/ttartisan/50mm-f14-m.htm) This is an impeccably well made lens.  It's all metal and very dense.  It's a breath of fresh air compared to the crappy plastic that too many people accept today from Nikon and Sony.  This TTArtisan lens is optically superior to the original LEICA SUMMILUX 50mm f / 1.4 and about the same as today's LEICA SUMMMILUX-M 50mm f / 1.4 ASPH.

 And say …. With the exception of a non-standard 49mm filter thread, it handles better than the SUMMMILUX-M 50mm f / 1.4 ASPH because the SUMMMILUX-M 50mm f / 1.4 ASPH's focus is stiff, while this TTArtisan lens focuses like a dream like most other LEICA lenses.  BUT… And that seams to be the point …. Quote Ken R… Men buy the LEICA to establish dominance.  Owning LEICA is tangible proof of a man's superior vision, inimitable taste and superior level of accomplishment.  LEICAs, instruments of the immortal, are a plaything for the talented.  We own LEICA because it is who we are, not because we need to take pictures.  LEICAs haven't been about taking pictures since they went obsolete back in the 1960s.  LEICA lenses cost what they do because they are well made and use very high grades of glass (for instance, you have to pay a lot for better homogeneity grades as LEICA does), but most of the price is paying for intangibles like bloodline and heritage .  Oskar Barnack's martyrdom isn't free.

And he continues talking a about the 50 mm 1.4 … While this TTArtisan lens is great for taking pictures, it isn't right to use it on a LEICA camera, since this lens lacks bloodline or heritage, and certainly doesn't confer any sort of prestige.  It just takes pictures.  If you have to worry about price, you should not be playing with LEICA.  Sit down and let the big boys play if you can't afford genuine LEICA lenses for your LEICA camera.  Love the Kend R Ironies …. But I think is understandable no?

in any case, there are many reviews from leica purists who speak very well or very badly of some of these little guys… I recommend this comparison between 11 different 50mm M mount lenses https://www.47-degree.com/focus-shift/leica-m-50mm-lens-comparison-part-1/#go-to-participants=

or Torsten Von Overgaard's words about the 7Artisan 50mm 1.1 (the worst Chinese 50mm in my opinion) https: //www.overgaard.dk/7artisans-for-Leica-M-rangefinder-and-Sony-Canon-and-Fujifilm-50mm-f-1-1-Sonnar-review-and-user-report.html he continues … 

 

 

 

 

 

[lct]

An M lens is a lens with an M mount. This includes ZM, VM and M-Rokkor lenses but also 7artisans and TTartisans of course, nobody said the opposite here. I have no experience with the 50/1.4 but i own the 35/2 which is a very good lens indeed. It is not on par with its Leica competitors due to flare and distortion mainly and its focus cam is a sloping one but it makes nice pictures really. Couple of snaps on digital CL here:

 

[pippy]

9 hours ago, Rodrigo castillo said:

...but this comment caught my attention.  I could understand it from leica purism and if they say if I switch to the Leica M system it is to use only leica lenses.  I can understand that.  But I switched to the M system to use Leica and Zeiss and Voitglander lenses but no, never a Chinese one ..???...

The the choice to use (or not to use) Chinese-made lenses has many facets and each of us has the right to choose our own path.

As far as the 7A lenses are concerned I have had experiences - mentioned earlier in this thread - which have been both good (50mm f1.1) and bad (75mm f1.25).

I picked up the 50mm f1.1 mainly out of curiosity and was very surprised by the results I obtained. Wide-open it can render images in a way I find truly beautiful and stopped-down it is hardly any worse than my 50mm Summicron. Conversely the 75 f1.25, because of focus-shift, could not possibly be calibrated correctly to focus at both MFD and infinity when used wide-open nor at both MHD and infinity when stopped-down; one had to choose one preferred 'distance' or the other. Sadly I decided to return the lens. I must point out that my copy was one of the very earliest and this issue could well have been resolved once early production nigges were sorted out. I say this because I've read many comments from users who have been very happy with their examples.

If you are interested in viewing examples from different makers and different focal lengths of lenses with different max. apertures you could do worse than have a look through this little lot (FWIW I've posted four snaps with the 50mm f1.1; three wide-open #11, #12, #13 and #26 is shot at roughly f1.4);

https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/314854-chinese-lenses-image-thread/#comments

Philip.

 

Edited August 1, 2021 by pippy

[markhout]

32 minutes ago, pippy said:

As far as the 7A lenses are concerned I have had experiences - mentioned earlier in this thread - which have been both good (50mm f1.1) and bad (75mm f1.25).

Conversely the 75 f1.25, because of focus-shift, could not possibly be calibrated correctly to focus at both MFD and infinity when used wide-open nor at both MHD and infinity when stopped-down; one had to choose one preferred 'distance' or the other. Sadly I decided to return the lens. I must point out that my copy was one of the very earliest and this issue could well have been resolved once early production nigges were sorted out. I say this because I've read many comments from users who have been very happy with their examples.

 

Just to second Philip's comments. My purchase of the 75mm 1.25 was patently unuseable for the same reasons. Hopefully they sorted out the issues.

After all, why buy such a big block of glass if you're not going to primarily shoot wide open?

On the flipside, I must say that I'm very impressed with the 28mm 1.4 and frankly also with the 90mm 1.25 - both wide open.

Below is an uncropped image (this example is on a Z7 and only 2400 px wide) with the 90mm 1.25 - never had a lens that flared so badly, but I learned how to manage the light. Centers are crisp, and wide open the corners don't matter much anyway. RAW files still need a little (micro) contrast bump. With some subjects, the lens has some swirly bokeh. The focal plane is super narrow - focusing definitely needs a EVF to avoid disappointment.

I admit that the 90mm is a special needs lens! Not going to abandon my trusty yet ancient 90mm Tele-Elmarit M.

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[Rodrigo castillo]

1 hour ago, Al Brown said:

The fun of buying Mitakon, TTA or 7A lenses is the lottery aspect - you never know what quality you will get with yours as the sample variation is really wild.
The fun of using the lenses is not knowing what is inside (hint: plastic parts in some, verified in person upon opening) and how durable they are if you hit something plus whether elements will unscrew by themselves over time.
The fun of selling your Chinese lenses is the incredible depreciation the second you purchase them - unless you buy used cheaply.

Do you have any link with the sale of some of these second-hand Chinese lenses?  I am very interested because I have just wanted to continue doing tests and I find very few and at very high prices at least on eBay and others like it (no more than 20% less than new).  I assumed that it is because they have not been on the market for a long time and that those who do not like them return them instead of selling them, but since you talk about the amazing depreciation the second you buy them, now I have been looking for it for an hour and I only find them more less than the Same prices as new ones ... pls tell me which page are the super cheap ones because I am very interested in your experience.

[pippy]

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17 minutes ago, Rodrigo castillo said:

Do you have any link with the sale of some of these second-hand Chinese lenses?  I am very interested because I have just wanted to continue doing tests and I find very few and at very high prices at least on eBay and others like it (no more than 20% less than new)...

Further to the above post by Al here in the UK the price of a used 50mm f1.1 (for example) in good nick from a dealership is around £209 - £219 but they can be had ex-demo new-in-box (also from a dealership) for £249. I bought my first (in black) when they were first available for £259 and liked it so much (as mentioned in one of the threads here) that I bought another in silver-chrome for my silver body.

Losing £40 (say) might be viewed as a 15% depreciation - which, considering I've had them for four years, isn't too bad anyhow IMO - but an annual loss of £10 (each, mark you!) isn't really too much to pay considering all the images I've captured using them.

Philip.

[Rodrigo castillo]

23 minutes ago, Al Brown said:

I got them cheap (40-50% off RRP) on B&H Used and eBay, but you have to stalk the listings and be patient, as they are sold very quickly. Had 4 of them, sold them all. One example: bought 7artisans Photoelectric 50mm f/1.1 Lens for Leica M in Silver (current RRP on B&H is 369$) for $199.

Thank you so much… I just check both second hands sites and didn’t find any thing like this bargain… but I will patient … normally the market of anything works a little different, and eBay is the perfect example. Many of those who sell on eBay are expert traders, so they know the supply and demand very well and if they see that an item that costs 400 new sells very quickly for 200 they will no longer sell it for 200 but for 300 and if they sell very quickly for 300 they will sell it for 350 and so on ... of course there are always private sellers who want to quickly get rid of their items and do not seek to make a good deal, in those cases it is possible to find a bargain almost by chance, but it is very exceptional, so my conclusion is that the resale prices of these lenses is, for now, an average discount of between 10 and 20 percent on the new price after a couple of years with some rare cases where bargains are found (which is applicable to any article).  This in the case of Chinese lenses with M mount, because in the case of the same lenses with other mounts, it is full of bargains.  I think one of the reasons is because M mount users are used to high prices even for very old lenses so anything under 500 euros may seem like a bargain ... hahahaha ... but the latter is just a prejudice on my part ... .

[pippy]

The 50mm f1.1 is an interesting lens in regard to its rendering because it goes from 'a bit crazy' wide-open to 'perfectly normal from around f2.8 down.

By way of examples at the wider end of the range here are two of the snaps I mentioned earlier; the first taken at f1.1 and the second around f1.4. In the first I love the way the image changes so rapidly from pretty-much pin-sharp on one pupil focus point to a beautiful flowing softness as the edges are reached. For the second I needed a bit more d-o-f to get all four eyes roughly sharp;

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Philip.

 

Edited August 1, 2021 by pippy

[Rodrigo castillo]

2 hours ago, pippy said:

The 50mm f1.1 is an interesting lens in regard to its rendering because it goes from 'a bit crazy' wide-open to 'perfectly normal from around f2.8 down.

By way of examples at the wider end of the range here are two of the snaps I mentioned earlier; the first taken at f1.1 and the second around f1.4. In the first I love the way the image changes so rapidly from pretty-much pin-sharp on one pupil focus point to a beautiful flowing softness as the edges are reached. For the second I needed a bit more d-o-f to get all four eyes roughly sharp;

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Philip.

 

That are really great images ! Congrat! We never forget that the photo is tasked by the person not the lenses… hahahaha ….. congratulation! I totally agree with you, I love taking photos with the 50mm 1.1 precisely because of those effects.  I must say that the optical quality, at least from my example, in the 50mm 0.95 of TT Artisan is far superior ... but as several have said here it is a bit of a lottery, maybe I was very lucky with the 0.95 and bad luck with the 1.1, however, from the reviews that I have seen and read, the one that is best talked about at the moment is the 50 mm 1.4 from TT Artisan, which is a model after the 0.95.  I have also the 7 artisan 35mm f2, which does its job well, but nothing remarkable.  I am tempted by the 50 mm 1.4 and the 35 mm 1.4 as well as the 28 mm 1.4 but I still can't find them at a second-hand bargain price hahahahaha… ..

[Rodrigo castillo]

2 hours ago, pippy said:

The 50mm f1.1 is an interesting lens in regard to its rendering because it goes from 'a bit crazy' wide-open to 'perfectly normal from around f2.8 down.

By way of examples at the wider end of the range here are two of the snaps I mentioned earlier; the first taken at f1.1 and the second around f1.4. In the first I love the way the image changes so rapidly from pretty-much pin-sharp on one pupil focus point to a beautiful flowing softness as the edges are reached. For the second I needed a bit more d-o-f to get all four eyes roughly sharp;

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Philip.

 

Here tw images with the 0,95 but at 2.0 

[6bit]

Has anyone else tried the 7Artisans 1.1/50mm on the Leica SL? The rubber that protects the rear element protrudes back to far and hits the inside of the shutter box on the SL. This stops the lens from focusing to infinity. The factory could at one time rework the rubber encasement (shortening the length by a small bit). Unsure if they still can.

 

[Rodrigo castillo]

9 minutes ago, 6bit said:

Has anyone else tried the 7Artisans 1.1/50mm on the Leica SL? The rubber that protects the rear element protrudes back to far and hits the inside of the shutter box on the SL. This stops the lens from focusing to infinity. The factory could at one time rework the rubber encasement (shortening the length by a small bit). Unsure if they still can.

 

Not in SL but in CL, I assume that the distance is the same or less in the CL, and didn’t have any problem 

[6bit]

1 hour ago, Rodrigo castillo said:

Not in SL but in CL, I assume that the distance is the same or less in the CL, and didn’t have any problem 

Do you mind posting a photo of your rear element?

 

can anyone else stick this lens in a SL? I have three copies. Black, silver, and red. Black and silver are 6 but encoded. The red one isn’t. 

[Rodrigo castillo]

Sure, 

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[6bit]

Thank you for reporting your experience and posting the photos. At the time I contacted the company, July 2019, they told me there are two versions. They didn't going into detail on how to tell. They did send me this photo to show the modification. I thought about just cutting the rubber down with one of my sharp knives.

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[gbealnz]

Don't think it's rubber. In the early days I had a couple. First one (in an SL) wouldn't reach focus at infinity, the rear cell contacted something within. Subsequent version, after I mentioned it, was modified by what looked like the rear cell being turned down, the edge anyway. If it had been painted black like the unlathed section you'd never know it. 

I got annoyed with its poor performance and sold it, I won't buy another. Their 35/2 however I do like.

[ale73]

Hi All, can some one explain exactly how many mm i have to cut to let the lens works fine at infinity on Sl or lumix camera? i have to reduce the rear cel all or just as picture above il lateral way from top to down?, thanks in advance

Alessandro