Voigtlander 50mm f1.2 to Leica Summicron

[erniethemilk]

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Back in October when I bought my M10-P I also picked up a Voigtlander 50mm f1.2 but the call of the Summicron is loud and I quite fancy picking up a 50mm f2. 
 

I like the Voigtlander albeit I think it’s a bit bigger than ideal and weighty too. 
 

Wondering if a Summicron (v4 or v5) is really that ‘much better’ than the Voigtlander and if I’ll save save weight/size if I swapped over to one. 
 

Thoughts anyone? 

[105012]

I have both of these, the Summicron 50 type 4 is noticeably lighter and more compact to carry around. Both make fine images, if you press me I’d favour the Summicron on image quality.

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[paulcurtis]

I just moved from the Nokton f1.5 (not the f1.2) to a recent summicron and love it - would not go back at all. It fixed everything i wasn't happy about the Nokton.

I did agonise whether to get a f1.2 or summicron though. I'm glad i went the way i did. On a day to day basis i just don't need f1.2.

Cheers
Paul

[a.noctilux]

15 hours ago, erniethemilk said:

Back in October when I bought my M10-P I also picked up a Voigtlander 50mm f1.2 but the call of the Summicron is loud and I quite fancy picking up a 50mm f2. 
 

I like the Voigtlander albeit I think it’s a bit bigger than ideal and weighty too. 
 

Wondering if a Summicron (v4 or v5) is really that ‘much better’ than the Voigtlander and if I’ll save save weight/size if I swapped over to one. 
 

Thoughts anyone? 

No answer can help you here.

Better or 'much better' for what use.

The f/1.2lens is always better than f/2 lens when you NEED f/1.2 or f/1.4 .

As user of dozen of M mount Summicron (28/35/50/75/90), I think that they are "average" wide open ( as good as Summilux closed to f/2 for many lenses ).

In my view, replacing a f/1.2 lens with f/2 lens makes no sense.

a . I'd "replace" with f/1.0 or f/1.4 (some Summilux-M are so nice performer)

b . add a smaller modest lens for day to day use , I have Summarit-M f/2.5 lenses for that purpose

 

Anyway there is no 'absolut better lens' (even not the Apo-Summicron-M 50 or Noctilux 0.95 or other)

[TomB_tx]

Using Leica for over 50 years I’ve always been satisfied with Summicrons instead of higher speed lenses, and I’ve always done a lot of low light work with f2 lenses. I worked at a Leica dealer while in college, and believed the Leica area Rep. when he said “faster” did not mean better images or higher quality, but were sold because customers thought they looked more professional. Also, most photographers then used SLRs where 1.4 lenses were expected, and that was Leica’s competition.

[ktmrider2]

I own both and don't think the Summicron is better.  In fact if I travel with only one 50 it is the f1.2.  My 50 Summicron is the latest version and it is in chrome so it may be heavier then the 50f1.2.  (If you are looking at Leica lenses, the chrome is always heavier then the black version).  

I may be selling the Summicron as I don't like owning more then one lens in each focal length.  

[a5m]

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2 hours ago, ktmrider2 said:

(If you are looking at Leica lenses, the chrome is always heavier then the black version).

While this is generally true it's not always the case. Can't remember the other lens besides the Noctilux 50/0.95 where there is no weight difference between the black or chrome finishes.

Oh and to the OP, I always prefer Leica glass over 3rd party. Recently sold all my Voigtlander lenses. Even on an M9 the affordable Summicron should be perfectly usable in most conditions. Don't underestimate its DR. Underexposing and correcting in post works like a charm.

Edited January 8, 2020 by a5m

[Harpomatic]

I have both, the Nokton 1.2 and the Summicron V5, and I have the same attitude: I want a single lens per focal length (I tend towards a minimalist kit).

To be honest I haven’t found the Summicron so “magical” as so many people are touting it. It’s a great lens, right size, does its job wonderfully, but so does the Zeiss Planar at the same level, and so does the Nokton 1.2 even using it from F2 onwards. 

These lenses are all great. Talking about microcontrast, aberrations, distortion, sharpness, 3D pop etc I do think the Nokton has surprised me often - some of the images jump out of the screen. And I use the whole aperture range.

I don’t sit in front of the screen inspecting my images inch by inch, I do shoot to create images that have content (at least I try hard to do so! 🤣) and the very small differences really don’t matter when we are using equipment of this quality. There are tiny differences in rendition, but they are just that, differences: no lens is better, each has its own character.

One thing I have been doing just now is paring down my kit to the essential, so only one 50 stays: Summicron, Planar or Nokton? I decided for the Nokton for several reasons:

the size of the Nokton is a little larger and it’s heavier, but if you really pick up the camera and use it, carry it all day the difference is hardly noticeable. On the other hand the haptics of the Nokton in my opinion beat anything else on the market, Leica or not: the focus throw and feel are perfect and the aperture ring is miles better than anything I felt on Leica lenses - no play, right stiffness and positive detents. The scalloped focus ring is great in the hand. I can focus much better with this lens than with anything else. Mind you, I’m not a big fan of focusing tabs!

Lens hood: I had gotten myself the V5 Summicron because of the built in hood: that thing never stays in place when it touches anythig even soft, I always have to pull it out again - what’s the point of it if it doesn’t protect the lens much? Stray light? But then I always have to check it is still deployed! I always end up keeping it retracted and that defeats the point of it. The Nokton hood is bayonet mount and way better than Leica hoods, which in many cases are ludicrous: nice and compact lens, humongous hood (see Summicron IV for example) or screw in hoods that you have to unscrew to use a filter. I don’t like Leica hoods very much! The bayonet mount is easy and practical, and I just keep it on if I put the lens away when I use it (I use the LH-8, the LH-10 is stupidly big).

Image quality: I can’t see any reason to prefer the Summicron to the Nokton at all. If anything, I probably get wowed more by the Nokton, and it is and incredibly accomplished lens, with a beautiful bokeh, which is great on the Summicron as well but not fantastic. Other parameters are at the same level, just nitpicking there.

Lens speed is a great bonus on the Nokton, and it completely makes up for the little difference in weight and size - I don’t shoot wide open all the time, but when needed it’s there and boy it delivers!

One thing that bugs me about the Summicron: Designed in 1979, barel redone in 1994 (IIRC), and still £2000? What the hell? Have they not recouped the design and tooling expenses? It should be cheaper, I don’t care about the badge! The Nokton is one hell of a lens for a much more reasonable price. And I think that if Leica had released the Nokton it would have accolades throughout the Leica fandom, a lot more than it has now, and it would probably cost £5000 at least. And a lot of Leicaphiles would buy it in a heartbeat, raving about its performance, build quality and fantastic bokeh...

I hope my opinions help a bit!

Flavio

[erniethemilk]

Thanks for all the replies. Much appreciated. 

I think in hindsight I’m going to stick with the Voigtlander for the time being, I think I just have a dose of GAS. I could ideally do with a second decent 50mm for my M6 but don’t think I want to spend a £1000 on a lens simply for my M6 in truth  

One thing that bugs me about the Voigt is the chrome ring on the end of the lens, I guess a cheaper option would be the LH-8 lens hood, problem is I really can’t get my head around paying over £100 for a lens hood! 😳 I have a cheapo screw in hood, but obviously it doesn’t mask the Chrome end. 

[TomB_tx]

5 minutes ago, erniethemilk said:

...

One thing that bugs me about the Voigt is the chrome ring on the end of the lens, I guess a cheaper option would be the LH-8 lens hood, problem is I really can’t get my head around paying over £100 for a lens hood! 😳 I have a cheapo screw in hood, but obviously it doesn’t mask the Chrome end. 

Both Zeiss and VC use this chrome ring, likely to prevent wear from the hood attachment. While the hoods cover the outside, they still leave the inside of the ring open to possibly cause reflection if the angle of light is just "right". I've started using a black B+W clear "nano" on these lenses as protection as they cover the inside chrome. The bayonet hoods can still be used with the filter, but I prefer the smaller bulk without the hood. While I've generally avoided filters due to reflections of light sources, the coatings of the newer filters seem to avoid this.

The external appearance of the chrome ring doesn't bother me - as an old engineer I have no style sense...

[Harpomatic]

I happen to really like the look of the chrome ring, and I too use a B+W clear filter leaving the hood in the bag most of the time, with no ill effect. The hood is mainly used if it’s raining or if I find it’s needed for the sun - which is not the case that often here in Uk!! 😂

[Pyrogallol]

2 hours ago, erniethemilk said:

Thanks for all the replies. Much appreciated. 

I think in hindsight I’m going to stick with the Voigtlander for the time being, I think I just have a dose of GAS. I could ideally do with a second decent 50mm for my M6 but don’t think I want to spend a £1000 on a lens simply for my M6 in truth  

One thing that bugs me about the Voigt is the chrome ring on the end of the lens, I guess a cheaper option would be the LH-8 lens hood, problem is I really can’t get my head around paying over £100 for a lens hood! 😳 I have a cheapo screw in hood, but obviously it doesn’t mask the Chrome end. 

If you don’t intend selling the lens, paint the chrome end black. I have a 15mm Voigtlander screw fit lens and someone painted the end of that black presumably to stop reflections, covering up the inscription of the lens name etc. Which was already orange/red on black !

[ktmrider2]

I agree totally with Harpomatic.  I own lenses from Leica, Zeiss and Voightlander.  If any of the M mount lenses made by Zeiss or Voightlander had been released under the Leica label, they would cost five times as much and the fans here would be raving about how great they are:  OMG, a 35f1.2 and it can be used for self defense as a bludgeon!

Sometimes we search for a "magic" lens or camera thinking it will take us to the next level.  I think we are all guilty and there is nothing wrong with that as long as we know that is really what is happening.  Am glad you have decided to keep your present system.  I am going to get rid of some duplicate lenses in the same focal lengths.

Edited January 9, 2020 by ktmrider2

[james.liam]

16 hours ago, ktmrider2 said:

I agree totally with Harpomatic.  I own lenses from Leica, Zeiss and Voightlander.  If any of the M mount lenses made by Zeiss or Voightlander had been released under the Leica label, they would cost five times as much and the fans here would be raving about how great they are:  OMG, a 35f1.2 and it can be used for self defense as a bludgeon!

Yes, and that's why Cosina and Zeiss are thriving because if you know something about the equipment you're using, you understand where the real values may reside. 

[jaeger]

On 1/7/2020 at 2:58 AM, a.noctilux said:

No answer can help you here.

Better or 'much better' for what use.

The f/1.2lens is always better than f/2 lens when you NEED f/1.2 or f/1.4 .

As user of dozen of M mount Summicron (28/35/50/75/90), I think that they are "average" wide open ( as good as Summilux closed to f/2 for many lenses ).

In my view, replacing a f/1.2 lens with f/2 lens makes no sense.

a . I'd "replace" with f/1.0 or f/1.4 (some Summilux-M are so nice performer)

b . add a smaller modest lens for day to day use , I have Summarit-M f/2.5 lenses for that purpose

 

Anyway there is no 'absolut better lens' (even not the Apo-Summicron-M 50 or Noctilux 0.95 or other)

Agree but adding that one needs to know how to focus using RF quick and accurate to appreciate faster lenses.  At aperture f2 is much more forgiving than f1.2 IMO.

I think the OP should rent/borrow a 50 summicron and shooting both lenses at f2 and see which one is "better" to her/him.

 

Edited January 13, 2020 by jaeger

[paulcurtis]

Renting lenses is a great idea if it's possible. In the US i think LensRentals does this and then will discount a sale.

In the UK i would love to rent Leica lenses as a lot of the questions i have i would answer them myself, so much of this is personal preference.

I have/had lots of VC lenses, from 12mm, 15, 21mm (both versions), 35 f1.4 and f1.2, 50 f1.5, 75 etc,.

The f1.5 50 always bugged it, do a portrait with someone in the middle of the frame and it looked great. But try a landscape or oddly centred then i found the image fell apart, field curvature, CA, nature of bokeh - whatever - it just wasn't for me. So i did go for my first 'proper' M lens, a 50mm Summicron and wasn't sure whether it was a case of the grass is greener but actually took it away, shot lots and much preferred the results over the CV in this case.

Hence now considering moving all the various lenses over to a small unified set.

I also have cine lenses, and those are very different beasts and love them for different reasons.

So renting would be ideal... Is this doable in the UK?

cheers
Paul

[jaeger]

or just walk-in to any used lenses retailer with your camera and a memory card, test the lenses you want.  much easier. 

Edited January 14, 2020 by jaeger

[Ko.Fe.]

I had V4 and it was no exception from odd flare it is known for. With M10 sensor, Summarit-M 50 2.5 is just right, IMO, as not large, true Leica handling, RF lens. 

[mhanke]

Just last year I added the 50mm Nokton 1.2 to my 2.0/50 Summicron. The latter is so much lighter and more compact, it makes an M a really small and unobtrusive camera. The image quality is very well. However, I think the Nokton is a lot quicker to focus, despite its large aperture I get more well-focussed pictures of moving motifs, especially in reportage situations. For a vacation trip, I might still prefer the Summicron for its lightweight, but generally, if weight and size is not a factor, I'd pick the Voigtlöänder anytime.

Marcus

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[David Kopytko]

I own both the Summicron (4th version with focusing tab and detachable hood, my favorite...) and the Nokton VM 1.2 Asph. They don't compete in my arsenal, rather, they complete each other. I love the Summicron for its contrast and sharpness (around f4 particularly) and for texture in the shadows (at f5,6). Its is a small and light lens. I use the Nokton for extreme low-light situations, and whenever I want portraits with very shallow depth of field, associated with beautiful, creamy bokeh af minimal focusing distance (0,7 meters). You won't get from it the kind of overall sharpness and colour saturation that you could expect from the Summicron, but at f8, the Nokton clearly wins in the center area. Also, the Nokton doesn't suffer from focus shift or excessive flare, sports a gorgeous 12-bladed diaphragm, and is also surprisingly small and light regarding its f1,2 maximum aperture. Lastly, another notable difference between these lenses: the Nokton is noticeably wider at 49,2mm than the Summicron (50,2mm). CONCLUSION:  both are keepers and will remain in my bag.