Can the new SL compete or even sostitute in some fields the S?

[ocean2059]

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Last time when I was at DC store I was told that Leica didn't really have a lot of inventory of the S007.  But I was told that the S3 will come out very soon (could be late this year). 

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[Stuart Richardson]

In some ways a lack of S007 inventory could be a good sign...clearing the shelves for the new model. But in general, I agree regarding the S system. Based on talking with Leica folk, it seems very clear to me that the camera will be brought to market, but the price is going to be an issue. Hopefully there will be good loyalty incentives, but it does not appear that the S3 will be price competitive with the GFX100 or Hasselblad systems.

 As I have said in the past, I think this is the last iteration for the S, at least in its current form. They have not introduced any lenses or accessories in years, all the while singing the praises of the SL system as their pro line every chance they get. At the major Leica launch even in Paris, there was no mention of the S at all. Management has changed since the S system was launched, and certainly the market has changed as well. Strictly from a business standpoint, the S system cannot make much sense for Leica to keep running, other than to keep making or selling existing bodies and lenses. SLR's are being hit hard by mirrorless in all segments of the market, the AF motors were a big blow to the reputation of the system, the price segment is extremely high compared to competitors with more features, and for the most part the SL lenses outperform the S lenses optically and mechanically (faster and quieter to focus etc). The S is still a wonderful system, but talk to any dealer and if they are being honest with you, they will likely tell you that they are not selling well, or selling at huge discounts. Obviously the secondary market is abysmal. It is a superb camera system which will still take wonderful photos for years to come, but it does not seem like a camera system which Leica will do much more with, other than give one last body and kick the can down the road one more time before eventually winding down the system, presumably around 2024. But I would love to be proven wrong! This is just what it looks like to me...

[Jeff S]

3 hours ago, ocean2059 said:

Last time when I was at DC store I was told that Leica didn't really have a lot of inventory of the S007.  But I was told that the S3 will come out very soon (could be late this year). 

Now listed on the Leica site as Spring, 2020.

Jeff

[Jeff S]

1 hour ago, Stuart Richardson said:

As I have said in the past, I think this is the last iteration for the S, at least in its current form. They have not introduced any lenses or accessories in years, all the while singing the praises of the SL system as their pro line every chance they get. At the major Leica launch even in Paris, there was no mention of the S at all. Management has changed since the S system was launched, and certainly the market has changed as well. Strictly from a business standpoint, the S system cannot make much sense for Leica to keep running, other than to keep making or selling existing bodies and lenses. SLR's are being hit hard by mirrorless in all segments of the market, the AF motors were a big blow to the reputation of the system, the price segment is extremely high compared to competitors with more features, and for the most part the SL lenses outperform the S lenses optically and mechanically (faster and quieter to focus etc). The S is still a wonderful system, but talk to any dealer and if they are being honest with you, they will likely tell you that they are not selling well, or selling at huge discounts. Obviously the secondary market is abysmal. It is a superb camera system which will still take wonderful photos for years to come, but it does not seem like a camera system which Leica will do much more with, other than give one last body and kick the can down the road one more time before eventually winding down the system, presumably around 2024. But I would love to be proven wrong! This is just what it looks like to me...

Almost reads like a direct quote from some of my posts.  But beware, I’ve been criticized for being too negative and not just enjoying what we have.  But if S007 prices sink to even lower levels, I could see picking up a clean body and a used lens (70) or two (120) with new motors, just to enjoy the OVF experience and some still great lenses.  

Jeff

Edited November 24, 2019 by Jeff S

[Sailronin]

8 hours ago, Jon Warwick said:

I don’t necessarily disagree with you.
 

It’s just not clear to me “why” digital medium format can sometimes give the impression of a different “look” to 35mm digital?

after all ....

(1) Many of the 16 bit cameras are really just 14 bit (+ extra 2 bits of RAW processing).

(2) I can change a lens and get a similar field of view between the medium format and 35mm full frames, and hence negate that as the argument.

And yet, the medium format digitals can sometimes (but not always) look a bit smoother and less digital than 35mm digital.

I’m not sure why that is? 
Is is because the enlargement factor (for the same size print) isn’t as many multiples due to the larger sensor - so less pressure on the lens? Or Is it simply because medium format is typically higher megapixels and - hence - there is less guessing and less “faked” data across the red / green / blue filter? Or something else?

Typically the difference is the larger sensor changing the depth of field and rendering.  Given the same pixel count a cell phone image v a full frame the main difference is infinite depth of field v controllable dof. Additionally I'm of the older school that believes actual pixel size makes a difference, a full frame 35mm sensor with 35 megapixel has smaller pixel pitch(?) than a medium format sensor with the same 35 megapixel count.  Maybe I've just psyched myself into believing it but I've been through Phase One P30, Hasselblad CFV 50 and now the Leica S(006) and compared images to both my M9 as well as M8, D700 and D800 and prefer to stick with the medium format.

[ropo54]

Leica Germany should be giving more support to its customers and its Leica stores, no matter what its ultimate plans are with respect to phasing out the S line (if that is the case). As Leica products, they should remain fully supported by Leica Germany!

Why be secretive  if the intent is to do away with the S system? The market cannot worsen by any such announcement, as there's very little inventory - bodies or lenses in the Leica stores. The secondary market for lenses has plummeted. The sales people are unenthused, and that comes from  Leica Germany.  And, if the S3 is to come soon, then why not be enthusiastic about support for the S line.

It seems a bit selfish of Leica. It is their product - support it!  Disappointing.

[Jeff S]

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2 hours ago, ropo54 said:

Leica Germany should be giving more support to its customers and its Leica stores, no matter what its ultimate plans are with respect to phasing out the S line (if that is the case). As Leica products, they should remain fully supported by Leica Germany!

Why be secretive  if the intent is to do away with the S system? The market cannot worsen by any such announcement, as there's very little inventory - bodies or lenses in the Leica stores. The secondary market for lenses has plummeted. The sales people are unenthused, and that comes from  Leica Germany.  And, if the S3 is to come soon, then why not be enthusiastic about support for the S line.

It seems a bit selfish of Leica. It is their product - support it!  Disappointing.

Not to disagree with any of your points, but to clarify statements from Stuart and me, we suggested that the S3 (assuming it materializes), could well be the last S, AT LEAST IN ITS CURRENT FORM. Just as the R now exists in substantive ways in the SL,  so too might the S platform evolve.  Let’s hope, if that happens in some way or another, that Leica has learned some lessons in transition, communications and customer support.  Current signs make one wonder.

Jeff

 

[ropo54]

I think your points are well taken.

My comment was suggestive that Leica's 'silence' hurts the brand, hurts their retail stores, and ultimately hurts their customers, to whom loyalty should be a 2 way street. (It goes beyond just sales of the Leica S).

[xiaubauu2009]

5 minutes ago, ropo54 said:

I think your points are well taken.

My comment was suggestive that Leica's 'silence' hurts the brand, hurts their retail stores, and ultimately hurts their customers, to whom loyalty should be a 2 way street. (It goes beyond just sales of the Leica S).

It won’t hurt the brand. It will hurt the pocket of people already invested tons of money into the system. S market is so small that it won’t affect any of their sales on other stuff. Nobody I know will ever think Leica = one of the worst reliable camera brand cause they are Germans. Hahaha. To them Leica is the by word for quality and workmanship. 

[ropo54]

40 minutes ago, xiaubauu2009 said:

It won’t hurt the brand. It will hurt the pocket of people already invested tons of money into the system. S market is so small that it won’t affect any of their sales on other stuff. Nobody I know will ever think Leica = one of the worst reliable camera brand cause they are Germans. Hahaha. To them Leica is the by word for quality and workmanship. 

I think that hurting the pocket book of people invested hurts the brand, which in turn hurts the Leica store(s).  Perhaps that the S market is so small, the effect will be negligible, but good corporate policy remains a worthy part of branding.

[ocean2059]

1 hour ago, Jeff S said:

Not to disagree with any of your points, but to clarify statements from Stuart and me, we suggested that the S3 (assuming it materializes), could well be the last S, AT LEAST IN ITS CURRENT FORM. Just as the R now exists in substantive ways in the SL,  so too might the S platform evolve.  Let’s hope, if that happens in some way or another, that Leica has learned some lessons in transition, communications and customer support.  Current signs make one wonder.

Jeff

 

I also agree with Jeff and Stuart's view about S3 being the last iteration of the S body of the OVF/DSLR platform.  Technically, Leica is facing some challenges to either transition into a future hybrid mirrorless body, or to truly improve the AF performance in terms of accuracy, speed and active AF point/area to stay in the OVF platform. But I don't really see viable solutions to either.

I believe the delay of S3 launch is really related to its AF performances. Current, Leica is relying on their engineering approach to improve AF speed and reliability. But with 64MP sensor size, accurate AF is very critical and Leica has been tuning its focus algorithms to cover all different conditions. 

As for me, I really like and enjoy using the S system so I will hold on to it in the foreseeable future. Given the possible price of the S3, I will be looking for an older S007, for sure.  

[Jan1985]

What I learned in the last months waiting and discussing about the S3. For the Leica engineers it really does not matter what is speculated. They work on the S3 and they seem to be not satisfied with some parts and want to improve it more and more. When it hits the market we will have a quite different discussion here.

And according the lens development. You can still buy the Canon 50mm 1.2L which was developed in 2006. And I know many Canon Shooters who buy it for new in 2019. That is the case in a lot of lens lineups of different manufacturers.

Edited November 24, 2019 by Jan1985

[BernardC]

As I have stated before, I don't think that we (people in this forum) are the target market for the S. With a few exceptions perhaps, but not many.

In a similar way, I don't think that high-street camera storefronts are the target market for the S. It's not an impulse buy, or even an in-stock buy.

You won't see many PhaseOne cameras or Hasselblad H-series on display this Christmas either.

I'm not surprised that most Leica stores don't actively carry the line. It's not their customer base, and they would have to sink a six-figure sum in inventory to do it any justice. There's nothing realistic about that business plan, and they know it.

This type of product is usually sold through a small number of specialized dealers. Those dealers also carry high-end lighting, studio fixtures, etc.

The same thing goes for professional cinema and sound gear. You won't find that at your local "Mom and Pop" camera store. They could probably order a VariCam on your behalf if you pressed them hard enough, but there's no way they will get one to display in the window, hoping for a walk-in with poor impulse control and a good credit limit.

[Stuart Richardson]

Go to Fotocare in NYC and ask them how many Leica S's they have sold. I think it might be enlightening. The last time I was there, we were talking about it, and they seemed to be shocked that I was shooting it, even though they sell it and know that it is a good system. They are a classic pro shop, servicing NYC pro photogs, selling Phase One, Profoto, Elinchrom, Broncolor, Hasselblad, Fuji, Sony, Canon, Nikon, etc. Maybe it is different in Germany? 

[BernardC]

14 hours ago, Sailronin said:

Additionally I'm of the older school that believes actual pixel size makes a difference, a full frame 35mm sensor with 35 megapixel has smaller pixel pitch(?) than a medium format sensor with the same 35 megapixel count.

It's not just a belief, it's based on sound optical principles. Medium format lenses are less stressed, which means you get higher local contrast (MTF).

For instance, imagine two cameras, one "full frame," and one medium format, both with around 50MP of resolution. For the same level of subject detail, the 35mm might be working in the 60 lp/mm range, whereas the MF will be in the 40 lp/mm range. The medium format image will "pop" more, because it can resolve the same fine detail with more contrast.

Obviously, there are edge cases, but it's mostly true within the same generation of lenses. It won't come across in the same way if you are comparing a new APO-Summicron SL with a dusty Hasselblad lens from the 1960s.

[BernardC]

2 minutes ago, Stuart Richardson said:

Go to Fotocare in NYC and ask them how many Leica S's they have sold. I think it might be enlightening. The last time I was there, we were talking about it, and they seemed to be shocked that I was shooting it, even though they sell it and know that it is a good system. They are a classic pro shop, servicing NYC pro photogs, selling Phase One, Profoto, Elinchrom, Broncolor, Hasselblad, Fuji, Sony, Canon, Nikon, etc. Maybe it is different in Germany? 

I don't know about Germany, but I imagine that it is. Wouldn't be a first. Mamiya used to have a huge pro market in the US, and almost nothing in Europe. On the other hand, Rolleiflex sold a few (not enough, granted) cameras in Europe, but almost none in NY. From what I heard at the time, most of their sales were on the west coast. That Schneider 180/2.8 was almost common among Hollywood photographers.

Going back to the original point, why would a street-front shop in DC want to gamble on that market? The local pros probably shop for their gear in NY.

[ropo54]

How can Leica stores not have any inventory on S lenses?  

Or, be unwilling to take trade ins of S lenses?

If the S3 is coming, would it not behoove them as Leica "ambassadors" to at least stock inventory of the product line - new and/or used? Assuming that 'they' are just as in the dark about Leica's intentions with the S line, is it reasonable that Leica Germany does not provide more information? 

[Jeff S]

The point I was making is that the Leica Store DC, for years, DID stock and promote the S system.  Leica Miami even more so.  And Tony Rose at Popflash had many S customers.  Now the DC Store doesn’t seemingly care, and has no inventory.  Seems the Miami Store, too, although I haven’t asked.  And Tony Rose got so frustrated with Leica S problems and customer support that he stopped promoting the system a while ago.  Things have changed.... for now at least.

Jeff

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[ropo54]

I had wanted to trade one of my S lenses to Leica Miami (I had bought my S 007 from them, and a fair amount of other items over the years) and Leica Miami indicated they were not taking in any S lenses (at any price). I found that disturbing and feel that Leica should be standing behind their product line. 

[Jan1985]

My experience as a German is that the German customers themselves struggle much more with the S Line. I don't know why. It seems a bit that our mentality is diffusing into the viewpoint to the Leica S. A German is not a German if he doesn't find anything to criticize in something which seems not to be "perfect". That is one reason why I prefer the international part of this forum. It feel more open minded. And I can tell you. When I travel to other countries I always notice how "German" I am for myself. 🙂