Image quality comparison between Hasselblad X1D II and Leica SL2

[Mr.Q]

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1 hour ago, Chaemono said:

From what I can tell so far, the X1D with its lenses is a niche camera fro Pros or an alternative to the M for hobbyists/amateurs.  

I'd say your assessment above is accurate. It's strength is landscapes and studio work. The X1D is not really intended to be used as a walkaround camera, though I use it like that anyway. The diminutive size makes it a beast for travel. The IQ out of this camera is captivating.

For low light, a FF camera with a fast prime will be better. For the evening, my choice is often the Q2 or Sony + 24/1.4 GM. Honestly though, it's quite rare to get a quality photograph in poor light conditions. In my case, I'd say the keeper rate (ie worth printing) is less than 1% so I'm really not that concerned about IQ of a camera at night.

Well anyway, we all have our preferences. Given what you prefer in a camera, the X1D doesn't sound like it's for you.

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[bags27]

Still waiting for the L mount Sigma Foveon. That'll scratch my itch...a lot more cheaply.

[Mr.Q]

Can you tolerate how poorly Foveon sensors perform in low light?

[bags27]

13 minutes ago, Mr.Q said:

Can you tolerate how poorly Foveon sensors perform in low light?

If it were for landscape, it would be acceptable. It's definitely niche, but in its place, the Merrill produces jaw-dropping photos. Not as a primary camera, but if it's SL2 and Hassy, or SL2 and Sigma, the latter combination might be nearly as effective....and, sharing the same lenses, a lot cheaper and more convenient. For me personally, however, it might depend on how well the Sigma can use M glass, and of that, I'm not especially optimistic.

Edited January 9, 2020 by bags27

[insideline]

3 hours ago, Chaemono said:

I don’t need the X1D II nor the XCD 80/1.9.  I don’t photograph landscapes nor stuff where the fantastic but sometimes for my taste a bit over the top colors, which, as I understand, are the result of sensor calibration with color profiles to pseudo 16-bit files by Hasselblad, matter.  But I would keep it as a low light alternative and let go of the S1.  There are two issues why I will likely still ditch it, the slow operations including extremely slow AF in low light, and this darn fringing.  The S1 is wonderful in low light and takes SL lenses. 

From what I can tell so far, the X1D with its lenses is a niche camera fro Pros or an alternative to the M for hobbyists/amateurs.  

Thank you to the shooter for the time taken to provide so many images but there are only one of two comparative images where one can really compare the side by side differences between the two systems IE: images #396 and #397 of the edge of the house show that the SL combination shows fuzziness in most areas like the spot lights, window frames, top roof edging etc whereas the Hasselblad combination is much sharper with more clarity in virtually every aspect. I would have liked to see far fewer examples but ones with a clear portrait or object where one could compare the difference in the amount of information shown in each image, shadow detail, dynamic range etc. as I found these images so full of branches, busyness etc and different focal points in each image etc to be able to make much of a comparison. 

[bags27]

4 minutes ago, insideline said:

Thank you to the shooter for the time taken to provide so many images but there are only one of two comparative images where one can really compare the side by side differences between the two systems IE: images #396 and #397 of the edge of the house show that the SL combination shows fuzziness in most areas like the spot lights, window frames, top roof edging etc whereas the Hasselblad combination is much sharper with more clarity in virtually every aspect. I would have liked to see far fewer examples but ones with a clear portrait or object where one could compare the difference in the amount of information shown in each image, shadow detail, dynamic range etc. as I found these images so full of branches, busyness etc and different focal points in each image etc to be able to make much of a comparison. 

Sounds as if you should rent the cameras and do the comparison yourself. Everyone would very much welcome the contribution!

[Chaemono]

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vor 7 Minuten schrieb insideline:

Thank you to the shooter for the time taken to provide so many images...

[...]

I would have liked to see far fewer examples but ones with a clear portrait or object where one could compare the difference in the amount of information shown in each image, shadow detail, dynamic range etc. as I found these images so full of branches, busyness et

Thanks for looking...you might want to tell the photographer. 🤣

[insideline]

13 minutes ago, bags27 said:

Sounds as if you should rent the cameras and do the comparison yourself. Everyone would very much welcome the contribution!

As I have shared in numerous previous posts I do own both systems with a larger investment in Leica vs Hasselblad and have been photographing with both Leica and Hasselblad for over 45 years, I also have my own darkroom, enlarger and professional printer so not so new to this subject matter. There are always things to learn which is why I enjoy reading the forum and also why I made a simple observation. 

[bags27]

1 minute ago, insideline said:

As I have shared in numerous previous posts I do own both systems with a larger investment in Leica vs Hasselblad and have been photographing with both Leica and Hasselblad for over 45 years, I also have my own darkroom, enlarger and professional printer so not so new to this subject matter. There are always things to learn which is why I enjoy reading the forum and also why I made a simple observation. 

Not trying to be squirrelly here, and you did express gratitude. But you're essentially asking someone to do their work over, whereas you could do it, too....for others.

 

[Chaemono]

vor 26 Minuten schrieb bags27:

[...]
But you're essentially asking someone to do their work over, whereas you could do it, too....for others.

 

And to entice insideline to do so, I’ll do XCD 90/3.2 vs. APO 75 Summicron-SL next, only branches and busyness. 😂

[setuporg]

4 hours ago, Mr.Q said:

The X1D is not really intended to be used as a walkaround camera, though I use it like that anyway. The diminutive size makes it a beast for travel. The IQ out of this camera is captivating.

I used the X1D i&ii only as a walkaround camera, in nature, traveling, and at kids' birthdays.  It's not that different from an SL2 in these contexts.  AF needs some planning but usually that's OK.

[setuporg]

7 hours ago, Chaemono said:

From what I can tell so far, the X1D with its lenses is a niche camera fro Pros or an alternative to the M for hobbyists/amateurs.  

From all the groups that sprung up for Medium Format, I think the driver is different look -- easy defocusing, excellent low-light ISO performance, and generally "different" results from the beaten to death FF market.  There're fewer offerings, which are also easy to like or not: slim and lovely X1D vs big and ugly GFX 50 or enormous and ugly GXF 100, and Leica S which keeps its fans happy with the best OVF in the world while worried about the future of the system with the delay of S3 and the overwhelming tide of mirrorless hype.  X1D attracted a lot of Leica S folks who want to travel light.  They seem to come to X1D from larger formats and it's fine enough while retaining some core MF feelings.  Hassy forum is not comparing it to SL2 but rather to GFX, S, or other Hasselblad lines, Phase One, etc.  Folks there are pretty aware of SL2 and consider it a nice toy to dangle alongside MF, among many other options.  Generally MF folks saw a wider spectrum of things and are more benevolent and accepting of all kids of system, which they often have, from M on up.  I've joined the MF movement with the original X1D and since then added the S, and consider it a different game -- the OVF of S and its behavior is entirely different from anything else, including X1D, and the X1D with its Buddhist approach and central shutter puts on in a different mood as well.  I feel it might be a bit much to juggle multiple systems, M+SL2 and S+X1D, and the SL2 disturbed my equilibrium, so I'll need to see what usage patterns emerge.  But I'd not limit one system to a niche -- X1D is fully capable of use everywhere an SL is, you just have to plan for AF as you do with an M.

Edited January 9, 2020 by setuporg

[insideline]

2 hours ago, setuporg said:

From all the groups that sprung up for Medium Format, I think the driver is different look -- easy defocusing, excellent low-light ISO performance, and generally "different" results from the beaten to death FF market.  There're fewer offerings, which are also easy to like or not: slim and lovely X1D vs big and ugly GFX 50 or enormous and ugly GXF 100, and Leica S which keeps its fans happy with the best OVF in the world while worried about the future of the system with the delay of S3 and the overwhelming tide of mirrorless hype.  X1D attracted a lot of Leica S folks who want to travel light.  They seem to come to X1D from larger formats and it's fine enough while retaining some core MF feelings.  Hassy forum is not comparing it to SL2 but rather to GFX, S, or other Hasselblad lines, Phase One, etc.  Folks there are pretty aware of SL2 and consider it a nice toy to dangle alongside MF, among many other options.  Generally MF folks saw a wider spectrum of things and are more benevolent and accepting of all kids of system, which they often have, from M on up.  I've joined the MF movement with the original X1D and since then added the S, and consider it a different game -- the OVF of S and its behavior is entirely different from anything else, including X1D, and the X1D with its Buddhist approach and central shutter puts on in a different mood as well.  I feel it might be a bit much to juggle multiple systems, M+SL2 and S+X1D, and the SL2 disturbed my equilibrium, so I'll need to see what usage patterns emerge.  But I'd not limit one system to a niche -- X1D is fully capable of use everywhere an SL is, you just have to plan for AF as you do with an M.

Precisely. 

[Fedro]

8 hours ago, insideline said:

Precisely. 

+1 

X1D has substituted SL for landscape and flash use

I still use the SL (now SL2) for its amazing lenses and zooms, with M lenses etc but the few times I have taken out the X1D on trips when I would normally use the SL (for example a weekend trip to Berlin last spring etc) it has given surprisingly good results.

Now if only there were a couple of good zooms available for it  ..

[Chaemono]

The fact that the X1D II needs 1.5 seconds per frame makes it impossible to use it for moving subjects like the M10 that does 5 fps, even with pre-focusing.  In the two links below are many examples with the M10 and the 75 Noctilux wide open where there are clearly moving subjects in many of the frames.  I would never use the X1D II for this type of photography.  
 

https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-QH7gXM/

https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-TGR75S/

 

[Mr.Q]

I'm glad you had that eureka moment. Yes, the X1D is no action cam.

[Tailwagger]

5 hours ago, Chaemono said:

The fact that the X1D II needs 1.5 seconds per frame...

The spec claims 2.7 FPS, so ~0.37 seconds per frame. Roughly the same as a M240.  For yucks I just tried it out panning across my living room over a few seconds and got more like 2 FPS, perhaps due to my use of standard SD (170 mb/s) cards. While most (including me) would prefer the M, let alone the SL2 for such things, the HB can be used in MF mode with all the same tricks that one would use with an M in these sort of situations, though admittedly with one major drawback... while OVFs are alway available, blackout makes the X1DII EVF useless during bursts.

[SrMi]

6 hours ago, Chaemono said:

The fact that the X1D II needs 1.5 seconds per frame makes it impossible to use it for moving subjects like the M10 that does 5 fps, even with pre-focusing.  In the two links below are many examples with the M10 and the 75 Noctilux wide open where there are clearly moving subjects in many of the frames.  I would never use the X1D II for this type of photography.  
 

https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-QH7gXM/

https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-TGR75S/

 

I think that max fps rate has nothing to do with camera's suitability for moving objects. How many fps had Cartier-Bresson's manually winded Leica M? 2 sec per image? The EVF lag is more of an issue for moving objects.

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[Chaemono]

vor einer Stunde schrieb SrMi:

I think that max fps rate has nothing to do with camera's suitability for moving objects. How many fps had Cartier-Bresson's manually winded Leica M? 2 sec per image? The EVF lag is more of an issue for moving objects.

I use a different technique. 😁

[Chaemono]

As I was looking at the rendering of the XCD 80/1.9, I couldn't help thinking that's it's sharp like a Summicron but blurs the background like an f/1.4 lens. Hence, the idea came to my mind that I could compare it to the 75 Summicron-SL.  After all, the FOV between a 75 mm and a 63 mm (FF equivalent) lens is closer than that of 63 mm (FF equivalent) lens and a 50 mm one.  Besides, didn't Leica raise and tighten that freakin' contrast curve on the SL Summicron lenses that they supposedly separate the subject more like an f/1.4 lens?  I chose a scene here where the distance of the subject to the background won't matter for blur much to even the playing field.  Keep in mind, we only want to examine the subject separation effect of the 75 Summicron-SL vs. an f/1.4 FF equivalent lens by another maker.

I want to say that shooting the two combos side be side today, the only advantage I could see in the X1D IQ was the colors and this is due the fact, as I understand, that Hasselblad calibrates the sensor with thousands of color profiles and the X1D outputs a pseudo 16-bit file with them.  The SL2 colors require more work in post.  As stated, I didn't do or won't show any close-ups where that bokehlicous OOF rendering of the XCD 80/1.9 shows, but I also won't show any of the fringing of this lens in the OOF areas which is always very pronounced if one looks closely, even in this example here. 

Less compressed JPEGs here: https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-s7N2tR/. I gave both pictures a bit of a warmer look.

X1D II + XCD 80/1.9 (nice colors out-of-the-box, slightly cropped at the top only, very little adjustments otherwise).  Don't look at the fringing in the OOF areas.

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ISO 100 f/1.9 @1/350 sec.

SL2 + 75 Summicron-SL (required some tweaking of colors, WB, and calibration in post to try to match X1D II).  Beautiful f/1.4-like subject separation.

ISO 100 f/2 @1/320 sec.

 

Edited January 12, 2020 by Chaemono