Surprise, excitement, intrepidation, utter disappointment, the Leica roller coaster

[jedi996sps]

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I can't express my utter disappointment, I'm just gob smacked. I'm not even feeling angry (yet).

 

and I should consider another lens such as the Summilux 50 Asph.

 

 

Mate, when it rains, it pours!!! am sure once u get the problem fixed u will love the lens. I had a nocti, went thru the rapid backfocus learning curve, tried it on various 'other bodies' and then made an executive decision and sold it for a new 50mm lux and guess what?!.... i am the magnet for backfocus lenses!

 

My 50mm lux is going back for adjustment/fiddling/fixing.

 

Good luck

[plasticman]

My point is that these days people are using computers to look up the bums of their images in a way we never did when analog printing was king. In all my days with the Noctilux I never even REALIZED it had focus shift until Puts mentioned it...After that I went back to my negatives and under a 25x scope, yes, you can see the effect.

 

Seems to me that the ground is always shifting when discussing the M8 on this forum (quite natural, considering the demographic of the membership) - when comparing with other cameras (the 5D say) it's all about the (almost) sub-pixel sharpness and so on, but as soon as someone raises a voice of criticism, people jump in and tell them to stop pixel-peeping.

 

Like I said, the image I posted above is a 100% crop from a scan that's around 2500 pixels wide - so not the resolution of the M8 DNGs of course - but I thought it was enough to see that, although characteriscally not super-sharp, it was at least focussing correctly on the M6.

 

Someone stated in another thread here the other day, that only maybe 10 to 20 of the 10,000 M8s that have been sold have any sort of focussing problem with different lenses, but it seems to be a recurrent topic from posters here.

As I was in the market for an M8 (but ended-up buying an M6 and an M7 instead), I find these sorts of statements directly irritating because I sincerely feel that prospective buyers are being misled into buying a product that they may later find to their cost was not what they were led to expect by over-enthusiastic owners.

 

Objectivity is best in the long-run - though a conviction that one has definitely bought the best possible camera in the world is probably shared by all the owners of cameras costing over a few grand...

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[stunsworth]

John, but in the real world we don't view images at 100% all the time - just as we don't drive around by going from 0-60, 60=0 and so on. Yes I too pixel peep, but a true test of a lens is in a print IMHO.

[barjohn]

John, but in the real world we don't view images at 100% all the time - just as we don't drive around by going from 0-60, 60=0 and so on. Yes I too pixel peep, but a true test of a lens is in a print IMHO.

 

My point was not about how we drive so much as our expectations as to quality and performance. Those things have changed. We pay more but we also expect more whether we use it or not. While pixel peeping has changed things, I can see the difference when I print which I do if the image warrants it. An out of focus image stays out of focus and never looks as good to me as one that is in focus. Even when printed at 5x7.

[35mmSummicron]

i'm basically repeating my post in another thread, but here goes...

 

i recently bought a first gen. 50mm F1.0 noctilux used.

 

it backfocuses quite abit at all distances, so i took it to Kindermann the leica service company in Canada to have it looked at. both the noct. and my M8 are within spec.

 

not wanting to send my newly acquired lens away i decided to adjust my rangefinder.

so far my Noctilux can focus fairly accurately wide open, and my other main lens 35mm F2 ASPH is pretty decent (slight front focus mid distance) and i have to do abit more testing towards infiniti.

 

bottom line is like you i was abit bummed out when i first got my expensive 50mm 1.0.

 

this lens is VERY well known to backfocus on the M8. the specs/tolerances of the lens must still adhere to film leica M's and not include the M8. it would be nice for leica to address this issue by stating what can be done about it.

 

i still LOVE my leica M8 and the 50mm F1.0 is a very unique lens...would love to get my whole leica kit working right....

[stunsworth]

John, if you can see it in a print then sure, it's a problem. But one of the things I was trying to get across is that 'out of focus' isn't a boolean state. Something isn't 'in' or 'out' of focus there are degrees of sharpness, and sometimes images that appear to have problems when viewed at 100% can look fine in a print.

[carstenw]

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Eoin, the Noctilux I tried had no such problems, and I did test it rather carefully. I would encourage you not to lose hope, because when it works, it is unique. Even if you don't like it, once you have got it fixed or replaced with a good copy, you will be able to sell and maybe make a little money. Hang in there. I would contact someone at Leica and get an exchange, and ask them to please test the lens that they send you at 1m, 5m and infinity, at f/1, f/2.8 and f/5.6. If it can handle that, it ought to be good. Note that it could take a bit to get to this point, as seen by the experience of others, but we all know what great shots we can do when things work.

[jaapv]

Dan,

 

What you are saying is true but a false premise. Today's cars don't perform like those from 30, 40 or 50 years ago and they cost a lot more too. The same should be true with lenses. We pay a lot more and expect much higher performance.

 

Correct in as far as it goes. This lens is an ancient design from way back when nobody even imagined the optical stress that we put on it nowadays, and an exceedingly difficult design at that. The only reason it survived is its uniqueness. I think that to bring it to a point where it can match the tolerances needed on the M8 without problems involves a complete redesign, both optically and mechanically. As it is, it is a fact of life that some examples have more focus shift that others and that it needs to be finetuned more often than other lenses. To come to your analogy - you could build a Volvo 240 to modern tolerances, but I still would be sweating on long sweeping Autobahn curves.....

[Eoin]

Hi Carsten,

I kind of thought there was back focus with aperture close down, but not to the extent seen here. You know my desire to use this as a portrait lens from f:/2.8 - f:/4 at about 2M.

 

I have sent an email to Andrea so I'll wait for an answer. I've already packed the lens back into it's box, effectively resigning myself to the fact I'll have to send it back and await it's calibration or replacement .

 

I really want the Nocti, I like what I've seen, I guess I'm just frustrated having come so close, I'll now have to send it back. I'm not so interested in selling it to "make money", I'd rather use it to make money, LOL

[Jamie Roberts]

Eoin, my sympathies....

 

I think Sergio is right on these very fast lenses. I know this isn't what you want to hear, but I'd send the M8 into somewhere to check the 75 / 90 (can't remember which you said you have) along with the Nocti.

 

The camera could be out by that very little bit...

[ken_tanaka]

I'm a bit surprised that men continue to lust for F/1.0 lenses. I don't know of one that has proved to be nearly as valuable as its usually breathtaking price would suggest.

 

Speaking of price, I'm very much with Hankg on this topic. Leica's quality / compatibility control should be much higher for the jaw-dropping premium that Leica levies on its lenses. My sense is that Leica's capacity has been overwhelmed by the M8 wave and many of its previous quality and production strengths are weakening. I rarely saw focus complaints with previous Ms.

 

I appreciate your disappointment. but my vote is: Send this lens back for a refund, not for a fix. That's the only way that companies begin to get the message.

[Jamie Roberts]

{snipped}

I appreciate your disappointment. but my vote is: Send this lens back for a refund, not for a fix. That's the only way that companies begin to get the message.

 

Yes, unless there's nothing wrong with it.

[JWW]

I also have a Noctilux on order using the 30%. But I already expect to have to fine focus adjust the M8 for this just like I did with my 75mm lux. These lenses have such a short DOF that I believe is beyond the standard production tolerance Leica is using (and has been using for the old lenses) and have to be matched together.

[Eoin]

Eoin, my sympathies....

 

... but I'd send the M8 into somewhere to check the 75 / 90 (can't remember which you said you have) along with the Nocti.

 

The camera could be out by that very little bit...

 

Jamie, my 28 Summicron is slightly front focusing, wide open the DOF just makes the focus point, 75 & 50 Crons are spot on IMO.

There is nothing wrong with the Nocti apart from the large back focus, tweaking the focus ring back brings the image into perfect focus, sharp.

 

Ken, It's not the lust of f:/1.0. Rather the way this lens draws at f:/2.0 - f:/4.0 that is of interest to me, And before you suggest Asph's I'm not to keen on the higher contrast. Anyway at less than €2k, it's at least worth a shot seeing as it's already way out there with it's retail price.

[hankg]

I also have a Noctilux on order using the 30%. But I already expect to have to fine focus adjust the M8 for this just like I did with my 75mm lux. These lenses have such a short DOF that I believe is beyond the standard production tolerance Leica is using (and has been using for the old lenses) and have to be matched together.

 

That is possibly true. The very fast lenses used up close and wide open maybe pushing the rangefinder set up a bit past it's design limits and might require more then normal calibration and fiddling. But Leica should make buyers aware of that ahead of time and have some kind of process to ensure that it works after you have paid your money. As it is buyers have the expectation that it's plug and play. Buy it, mount it and go take pictures. I remember getting cams ground at Linhof NJ for any lens I wanted to mount on my Technika. You knew what you were in for when you wanted to get a new lens to work with your camera.

 

Managing expectations and communication is as important as having a quality product.

[Jamie Roberts]

Eoin,

 

I also have a Nocti on order, for precisely the same reasons as you do. I love it stopped down a little. Though there wre occasions where I would use--with the crop factor--at 1.0.

 

I don't know, it sounds like everything else on your system is right. I only know that unless the lens is really off (like my used 75 Lux that couldn't attain infinity on the test bench) it's always easier to tweak both camera and lens together. It's all about tolerances here, no?

 

Hank--I completely agree on managing expectations.

[wlaidlaw]

Eoin,

 

After two trips to Solms, I think my Noctilux is finally about as good as it can get. I really don't give a damn about their checking methods with crosses focussed on a screen. They know these lenses are going to be used on an M8, as they were bought with a 30% voucher. Why on earth don't they check them with a good M8 body - not exactly rocket science. Or even better, invest in a Zeiss K8/9 computerised optical bench. If you can find this fault in I would guess, about 10 minutes, it is not unreasonable on this very expensive lens, for Leica to do the same. I think a "fizzer" to Steven Lee is called for. This sort of thing has been going on for months - it is long past time it was stopped. You have my every sympathy. This is a disgraceful performance on the part of the "world's finest camera company".

 

Wilson

[Jamie Roberts]

Wilson,

 

You know how cautious I am about this stuff, but yes, I agree. Leica needs to fix this. Fast.

[Stuart Richardson]

Jamie, my 28 Summicron is slightly front focusing, wide open the DOF just makes the focus point, 75 & 50 Crons are spot on IMO.

There is nothing wrong with the Nocti apart from the large back focus, tweaking the focus ring back brings the image into perfect focus, sharp.

 

Ken, It's not the lust of f:/1.0. Rather the way this lens draws at f:/2.0 - f:/4.0 that is of interest to me, And before you suggest Asph's I'm not to keen on the higher contrast. Anyway at less than €2k, it's at least worth a shot seeing as it's already way out there with it's retail price.

 

If this is the case, have you tried the 50mm f/1.4 Summilux Pre-Asph? It is dramatically smaller, draws beautifully and much like the noctilux at those apertures.

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[sdai]

These problems may have existed for a long time it's only that being with digital, focusing is more critical and the errors are more revealing ...

 

Every photographer should try a f/1.0 lens at least once in your lifetime ... just to convince yourself that either you don't like it or, you don't need it.