"Vader" Certainly Isn't Any Prettier

[IkarusJohn]

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Be careful what you wish for ...

[bags27]

2 hours ago, thighslapper said:

Forgive me ...... but these sort of statements ...... of which there are plenty on the forum .... rarely if ever are backed up with convincing factual evidence of any actual difference.

Example images taken at the same focal lengths, under identical conditions and processed optimally and are required. I cannot see how a digital camera can produce 'less digital' looking images from the sensor alone ..... particularly with Leica where all the parameters are deliberately kept aligned to give a 'Leica' colour palette.

I have posted images from the S1R and the SL and they are indistinguishable ..... and that's from two different manufacturers and sensors. With the correct default adobe profile in LR this is exactly what you would expect. 

There are many other factors that can result in differences in image quality, but modern high DR and high resolution sensors are way down the list. 

Every new camera results in some complaints about the differences compared to previous models ..... and in the past most of this has proved to be due to Adobe not having the appropriate profile in LR when the camera was released. I'll only pass judgement when I have seen images produced under identical conditions, side by side, processed with the correct profile in LR.  

No worries: I appreciate the observation, and I pretty much agree: it's all highly subjective. When I say: "I like this shirt: it makes me look thinner." I have no idea whether or not it's objectively flattering. But I "know" what I like, and I will wear that shirt more often than others.

Walter Benjamin famously argued in "The Work of Art in the Age of Mechanical Reproduction" about the "aura" of the original. We cannot objectively tell the difference between the original and knockoffs (infamously, the Met in NY once purchased one of its own museum shop reproductions!!). But we often "know" the original for some special quality. Similarly, I "know" that the M10 is most "filmic" and that the SL and CL can produce photos that are closer to that aesthetic than does the Q. YMMV

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[nicci78]

After many days of thinking. I opted not to buy SL2. 
Still too big and heavy to replace mighty CL. 
SL2 is maybe too late, too little, too similar and too expensive over the S1R. Key differences are supposed better M lenses support and easier to learn UI  

Design wise they are both quite ugly in person. 

Right now SL2 is 81% more expensive than S1R. And it is only 18% lighter

I guess that if you already have an S1 or an S1R, the SL2 will bring little on the table. Worst for less money you can get both S1 and S1R. 

[sillbeers15]

3 hours ago, nicci78 said:

After many days of thinking. I opted not to buy SL2. 
Still too big and heavy to replace mighty CL. 
SL2 is maybe too late, too little, too similar and too expensive over the S1R. Key differences are supposed better M lenses support and easier to learn UI  

Design wise they are both quite ugly in person. 

Right now SL2 is 81% more expensive than S1R. And it is only 18% lighter

I guess that if you already have an S1 or an S1R, the SL2 will bring little on the table. Worst for less money you can get both S1 and S1R. 

You might be correct. That is the worst case. But I’m not talking about weight and size (I’m perfectly happy after handling it). Also not about specifications as these will be very similar or same as the S1R. UI can only be the icing on the cake. The core to me will have to be the AF tracking, DR & ISO on how well they work in real world application that determines if I can eventually agree with your comment. I think it is still too early to determine at this stage.

Your argument of 81% more in price can also apply to Leica SL lenses over Pana S series lenses. Or even Fuji XTs better value for money over CL. 

Just for thoughts.

[nicci78]

5 hours ago, sillbeers15 said:

Your argument of 81% more in price can also apply to Leica SL lenses over Pana S series lenses. Or even Fuji XTs better value for money over CL. 

Latest issue of french magazine Le monde de la photo showed that Leica SL lenses are way better suited for 47MP than Lumix S ones. 
Actually the German lenses are better than all other full frame mirrorless competition. 
Therefore they worth every extra penny. 

CL against XT-2 is not in the same situation. The most obvious difference is that one is classical Bayer, the other is X-Trans. Just for the weird sensor I will never buy Fujifilm cameras.
Then you add thin sensor stack for M lenses, different mount and excellent TL lenses. 
In the end they have not much in common. 
 

Right here, with SL2 & S1R, we have two cameras sharing the same technological basis : 47MP sensor (tweaked for M lenses) ; QL-mount ; AF (DFD with objects recognition) ; 3.2” touch screen ; 5.6MP OLED EVF ; IBIS ; no in camera GPS ; I even suspect that the CPU maybe the same under the name Maestro III (just running Leica OS) 

Difference in IQ should be minuscule with the same lens between these two brothers.

The real difference is the totally different body. SL2 is easier to handle and to use than S1R. 

 

[Chaemono]

vor 17 Minuten schrieb nicci78:

The real difference is the totally different body. SL2 is easier to handle and to use than S1R. 

And probably the higher res top LCD screen.

[sillbeers15]

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7 minutes ago, nicci78 said:

Latest issue of french magazine Le monde de la photo showed that Leica SL lenses are way better suited for 47MP than Lumix S ones. 
Actually the German lenses are better than all other full frame mirrorless competition. 
Therefore they worth every extra penny. 

CL against XT-2 is not in the same situation. The most obvious difference is that one is classical Bayer, the other is X-Trans. Just for the weird sensor I will never buy Fujifilm cameras.
Then you add thin sensor stack for M lenses, different mount and excellent TL lenses. 
In the end they have not much in common. 
 

Right here, with SL2 & S1R, we have two cameras sharing the same technological basis : 47MP sensor (tweaked for M lenses) ; QL-mount ; AF (DFD with objects recognition) ; 3.2” touch screen ; 5.6MP OLED EVF ; IBIS ; no in camera GPS ; I even suspect that the CPU maybe the same under the name Maestro III (just running Leica OS) 

Difference in IQ should be minuscule with the same lens between these two brothers.

The real difference is the totally different body. SL2 is easier to handle and to use than S1R. 

 

Like I’ve wrote earlier, that would be the worst case. However that will mean the development is either together for both cameras or Leica is so hopeless that they’ve spent 4 years time in vain to purchase even the processor circuit from Panasonic? Plus that 12 mths later announcement of SL2 after S1R, again means Leica has no in-house design & development capability other than drawing & designing the camera case and UI?

That sounds either suicidal or desperate attempt to announce a brand leading product. They even sacrificed S3 announcement to focus getting SL2 right (my speculation purely) but yet the best Leica could do is to produce a S1R clone?

Wow, do you know how pethatic that sounds? 

I really hope not. Else Leica brand is doomed once again!

[Chaemono]

vor 1 Minute schrieb sillbeers15:

Like I’ve wrote earlier, that would be the worst case. However that will mean the development is either together for both cameras or Leica is so hopeless that they’ve spent 4 years time in vain to purchase even the processor circuit from Panasonic? Plus that 12 mths later announcement of SL2 after S1R, again means Leica has no in-house design & development capability other than drawing & designing the camera case and UI?

That sounds either suicidal or desperate attempt to announce a brand leading product. They even sacrificed S3 announcement to focus getting SL2 right (my speculation purely) but yet the best Leica could do is to produce a S1R clone?

Wow, do you know how pethatic that sounds? 

It may be pathetic but they get away with it.  Their marketing people cleverly mask yesterday's tech be sending out invitations that say "Discover a new Milestone!", "An evening to appreciate a new pinnacle" and "state-of-the-art technology."  They mean IBIS.

[caissa]

Every company is doomed, that's simply natural. And Leica is there since more than 100 years, that's quite unnatural. Most companies step down much earlier.  We had this doomed stuff already a few years ago (The SL is doomed). The SL is still there, although it was compared with the Titanic. But the website of this doom-sayer is not there anymore ...

A few days before the announcement of the SL2 I feel quite good. And relaxed, after all there are now 6 cameras to use with SL lenses, great. What a choice !  I find it great that we have the choice between S1R and SL2, and I lean a bit towards the SL2.

[sillbeers15]

Let’s not forget that we might see S1RII in six mths time with an improvement in everything knowing they are financially way bigger and they are Japanese.

[caissa]

5 minutes ago, Chaemono said:

It may be pathetic but they get away with it.  Their marketing people cleverly mask yesterday's tech be sending out invitations that say "Discover a new Milestone!", "An evening to appreciate a new pinnacle" and "state-of-the-art technology."  They mean IBIS.

Who is so naive to take these marketing messages for the pure truth ? You are certainly not. But in this context, this is expected from Leica, their slogans always were in that style. And Sonys slogans are as well.  This is the kind of lies that today simply belong to "our" culture. Every company who would make an announcement of second-best products would simply be laughing stock. Not worth any discussions.

[Chaemono]

vor 6 Minuten schrieb sillbeers15:

Let’s not forget that we might see S1RII in six mths time with an improvement in everything knowing they are financially way bigger and they are Japanese.

I forgot to add "A New Leica Achievement."  They mean cloning. 😂  

Nicci probably has no clue.  A member of this forum who is under an NDA sent me the following private message:  "The biggest change is not reported yet 😉 What I can say,...[the] SL2 is a new departure for Leica. And it is the main reason for the long delay."

We'll find out in two days.

[Fedro]

23 minutes ago, Chaemono said:

I forgot to add "A New Leica Achievement."  They mean cloning. 😂  

Nicci probably has no clue.  A member of this forum who is under an NDA sent me the following private message:  "The biggest change is not reported yet 😉 What I can say,...[the] SL2 is a new departure for Leica. And it is the main reason for the long delay."

We'll find out in two days.

No compulsory noise reduction for long exposures, that would be quite a departure - and a welcome one as far as I am concerned. I would love to see that but am not holding my breath

 

Edited November 4, 2019 by Fedro

[nicci78]

2 hours ago, Fedro said:

No compulsory noise reduction for long exposures, that would be quite a departure - and a welcome one as far as I am concerned. I would love to see that but am not holding my breath

 

You may start to hold it until Wednesday. 😉 

[nicci78]

2 hours ago, sillbeers15 said:

Let’s not forget that we might see S1RII in six mths time with an improvement in everything knowing they are financially way bigger and they are Japanese.

Of course not. Even Panasonic will have to wait 3 or more years to pay for S1R, before launching S2R. 

But cheaper S10 will see the day of light way before. 

The price of S1R will certainly plumet until then. But SL2 price will stay stable. 

[thighslapper]

13 hours ago, nicci78 said:

After many days of thinking. I opted not to buy SL2. 
Still too big and heavy to replace mighty CL. 
SL2 is maybe too late, too little, too similar and too expensive over the S1R. Key differences are supposed better M lenses support and easier to learn UI  

Design wise they are both quite ugly in person. 

Right now SL2 is 81% more expensive than S1R. And it is only 18% lighter

I guess that if you already have an S1 or an S1R, the SL2 will bring little on the table. Worst for less money you can get both S1 and S1R. 

Having spent two of the last three weeks in the Lake District and Loch Torridon I have to say that the S1R ticks about every box as the ideal landscape photography FF camera ...... ergonomically very well designed and I never have to access the on screen menus apart from aspect ratio and LENR which are just a press away on the Q menu. Even bracketing is just a flick of a switch. IBIS is astonishingly good. I will try the SL2 but I too doubt it is going to surpass the sheer usability of the Lumix for the price. If they have managed to squeeze out of the sensor MF dynamic range and colour reproduction (changing the bayer array to yellow?) then that's a different story...... 

As for the S1R and SL2 being clones mentioned above ...... Leica did categorically state they were 'surprised' by the Panasonic cameras and Panasonic themselves stated they were designed from the ground up in 2-3 years, by which time the SL2 was probably fairly fixed in the final specifications. No doubt the cameras will share components, but I doubt it was planned and with collaboration. It has also been stated categorically that L Alliance co-operation extends to the mount only. 

[nicci78]

12 minutes ago, thighslapper said:

It has also been stated categorically that L Alliance co-operation extends to the mount only. 

In one of its recent interview, Stephan Daniel stated that L-mount alliance also extend into component sharing. This was the only way for Leica to still manufacture L-mount cameras at a reasonable cost. Leica being too small to acquire certain key components like the screen of EVF at low price. Buying them in tandem with Panasonic and Sigma may lower the bill for all three. 

That's why sensor, EVF, screen and may be CPU are the same. 

Batteries used by Leica and Sigma are already manufactured by Panasonic for years. 

Of course Panasonic-Leica technology sharing deal is still valid for the alliance. So why on earth Leica should develop in house : IBIS, fancy AF, etc.. for less than 10,000 cameras only ?

Let me be clear, SL2 is an excellent camera. It handles beautifully. UI is very nice. It is the best Leica camera right now. It gives us everything we ever wanted from them. However by sharing most of its component with Panasonic, it opens a door for cheaper and also very competent alternative. In a way that never happens since the original CL made by Minolta. A very dangerous game for the German. I guess that the cost benefit worth the potential sales lost. 

 

To conclude, I think that if you already get an S1R, SL2 does not really worth it. 

If you have waited patiently to renew the SL or to buy your first SL type camera. Go for SL2, it should not disappoint. 

 

 

 

[hillavoider]

3 hours ago, Chaemono said:

I forgot to add "A New Leica Achievement."  They mean cloning. 😂  

Nicci probably has no clue.  A member of this forum who is under an NDA sent me the following private message:  "The biggest change is not reported yet 😉 What I can say,...[the] SL2 is a new departure for Leica. And it is the main reason for the long delay."

We'll find out in two days.

Must be something to do with cine mode, could be a S1R and S1H combined 

[thighslapper]

4 minutes ago, nicci78 said:

However by sharing most of its component with Panasonic, it opens a door for cheaper and also very competent alternative. In a way that never happens since the original CL made by Minolta. A very dangerous game for the German. I guess that the cost benefit worth the potential sales lost. 

The L Alliance was a Panasonic proposal and I still cannot fathom what Leica gets out of the deal ... apart from possibly a wider awareness of the SL system...... but there again we do not know what discussions are had behind closed doors and official press releases only reveal what they want us to know.......  there may be a more mutually beneficial arrangement than we are led to believe.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica L-Mount

[jaapv]

24 minutes ago, nicci78 said:

In one of its recent interview, Stephan Daniel stated that L-mount alliance also extend into component sharing. This was the only way for Leica to still manufacture L-mount cameras at a reasonable cost. Leica being too small to acquire certain key components like the screen of EVF at low price. Buying them in tandem with Panasonic and Sigma may lower the bill for all three. 

That's why sensor, EVF, screen and may be CPU are the same. 

Batteries used by Leica and Sigma are already manufactured by Panasonic for years. 

Of course Panasonic-Leica technology sharing deal is still valid for the alliance. So why on earth Leica should develop in house : IBIS, fancy AF, etc.. for less than 10,000 cameras only ?

Let me be clear, SL2 is an excellent camera. It handles beautifully. UI is very nice. It is the best Leica camera right now. It gives us everything we ever wanted from them. However by sharing most of its component with Panasonic, it opens a door for cheaper and also very competent alternative. In a way that never happens since the original CL made by Minolta. A very dangerous game for the German. I guess that the cost benefit worth the potential sales lost. 

 

To conclude, I think that if you already get an S1R, SL2 does not really worth it. 

If you have waited patiently to renew the SL or to buy your first SL type camera. Go for SL2, it should not disappoint. 

 

 

 

There are parallels in car manufacture. BMW, Jaguar and Landrover use the same platform. Yet somebody considering one of these brands would never consider one of the other.