helged Posted October 9, 2019 Share #681 Posted October 9, 2019 Advertisement (gone after registration) 11 minutes ago, sillbeers15 said: It is my hope that it be a different sensor than the S1R, but I’m not certain. It got to be better in DR than S1R for sure. If it is based on S1R sensor, than AF will likely be same as S1R based on same architecture. If it were a different sensor, than a PDAF & CDAF hybrid AF can be possible. A lot also depends on the processor power as I suspect the lack of AF tracking reliability actually depends more on processing power (or speed of calculation) than the type of AF. The Sony A9II promotion spec states that the AF tracking calculates 60 times per second. Although the SL offers 11 frames per Sec shooting speed. It essentially takes mostly rubbish as far as AF tracking on AFC mode ending up with mostly out of focus pics. Folks quickly jump into conclusion that the SL was useless for AF tracking moving subject. My own experience tells that dropping from Continuous high mode to Continuous medium mode improved AF tracking reliability so much more. Therefore it is the calculation speed that matters more and six frames per sec with reliable AF tracking means much more that faster but rubbish. Anyway in 31 days we will know for certain ‘what is what’ ending all the fun on speculation. Thanks! 11 fps have been useful with manual lenses (or shooting with AF lenses in manual focus mode) - as for the example below - but I fully agree that 11fps AND AF simply doesn't work... 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
nicci78 Posted October 9, 2019 Share #682 Posted October 9, 2019 I think that Leica reconsidered its SL cameras positioning in the market. unable to rival Sony A9, they shifted to high resolution camera. Perfect to accommodate the APO-Summicron-SL line. No PDAF I am afraid. If it really got IBIS it will be already a huge improvement. 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaemono Posted October 9, 2019 Share #683 Posted October 9, 2019 vor 57 Minuten schrieb nicci78: I think that Leica reconsidered its SL cameras positioning in the market. unable to rival Sony A9, they shifted to high resolution camera. Perfect to accommodate the APO-Summicron-SL line. No PDAF I am afraid. It seems Cine Mode is how Leica will try to differentiate the SL2 vs. Panasonic because basically the same sensor and Sony because SL lenses are better. Can’t wait for 4K video function in APS-C mode. 😂 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
nicci78 Posted October 9, 2019 Share #684 Posted October 9, 2019 If it is the same cine mode as Q2. Don’t hold your breath. Only 4K wide cinema format... For the rest Q2 is quite bad for video. No manual mode. No shutter speed control. Extremely bad 120fps mode. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sillbeers15 Posted October 9, 2019 Share #685 Posted October 9, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, nicci78 said: I think that Leica reconsidered its SL cameras positioning in the market. unable to rival Sony A9, they shifted to high resolution camera. Perfect to accommodate the APO-Summicron-SL line. No PDAF I am afraid. If it really got IBIS it will be already a huge improvement. My thoughts are ‘what’ sensor manufacturer Leica chose to use. For mirrorless, unlike DSLR which require to position PDAF sensors for AF detection before the mirror retracts, the AF sensors are built into the image sensor. Sony sensors already have PDAF & CDAF sensors built into image sensor. Anyway like I mentioned in my earlier post, I attribute the less than PDAF capability of CDAF sensors to the processor power allocated for AF recalculation more significant than CDAF drawback. Else CDAF would not work so well on non AF tracking application. Edited October 9, 2019 by sillbeers15 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bags27 Posted October 9, 2019 Share #686 Posted October 9, 2019 The SL2 may sort of seem like a reflection of the S1R, but I don't believe that either Leica borrowed a lot from Panasonic or because it "rebadges" the S1R, as it does for its bottom lines. Leica was reportedly quite surprised by the appearance of the S1/S1R, and obviously has been working on the SL2 for a couple of years. So, while there may be some use of Panasonic materials in the normal course of development, I feel confident that Leica will be making its own statement. To what extent that statement is worth twice the price of the S1R is a personal decision. That's always been the case, especially with mirrorless, but now even clearer with the sharing of the same mount. For me, I wonder what magic Sigma will produce with its foveon-based L mount. When I look at photos taken with the 4 single-lens versions (Dps), I'm amazed. But when I look at output from the Quattro, I'm less impressed. Do the single-lens versions have built in corrections that produce such fantastic MF output? Or will the L mount Sigma be able to duplicate the magic of the single-lens versions? Sure, the camera will have a limited effective ISO range, but the photos are amazing..... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sillbeers15 Posted October 9, 2019 Share #687 Posted October 9, 2019 Advertisement (gone after registration) Leica did used quite an extensive amount of electronic hardware from Panasonic on the SL. However now that Panasonic produced it’s own FF mirrorless with a common mount. As Leica, I would want to differentiate SL2 over S1R as much as possible. Besides it is to the interest of the users now that there is a common mount. I can look forward to S1RII if SL2 disappoints. I’m certain S1RII will not take 4 years to appear. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Warwick Posted October 9, 2019 Share #688 Posted October 9, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, bags27 said: I wonder what magic Sigma will produce with its foveon-based L mount. When I look at photos taken with the 4 single-lens versions (Dps), I'm amazed. But when I look at output from the Quattro, I'm less impressed. Do the single-lens versions have built in corrections that produce such fantastic MF output? Or will the L mount Sigma be able to duplicate the magic of the single-lens versions? Sure, the camera will have a limited effective ISO range, but the photos are amazing..... I used to have a DP Merrill. The depth of colours and acuity was extraordinary. Their files are like looking at large format E6 on a light box. But I think the sensor design changed when they switched to the Quattro. If the output on the upcoming Sigma L Mount is like a supercharged version of the Merrills, it could be very exciting when paired with a top Leica prime lens. Edited October 9, 2019 by Jon Warwick 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaemono Posted October 9, 2019 Share #689 Posted October 9, 2019 (edited) The S1R sensor can only output 8-bit video, the SL 10-bit. An SL2 with that 47 MPx sensor would be a step backwards, or, to put it in Leica lingo, a reduction to “Das Wesentliche.” 🤣 That Nokishita leak is such an obvious BS. Edited October 9, 2019 by Chaemono Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
nicci78 Posted October 10, 2019 Share #690 Posted October 10, 2019 (edited) Will be announced before Paris Photo 2019 & Salon de la photo at Paris. Both exhibitions starting November 7th 2019 IBIS confirmed. Hello Darth Vader dark force photos leaked are true. Thanks Nokhishita. CL/Q2 three buttons layout. But same buttons count as SL. Q2 modified sensor. Whatever that means. 5,990€ including VAT This Wednesday and Thursday workshops were for Leica sellers. First time they ever touched SL2. Edited October 10, 2019 by nicci78 5 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hillavoider Posted October 10, 2019 Share #691 Posted October 10, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, nicci78 said: Will be announced before Paris Photo 2019 & Salon de la photo at Paris. Both exhibitions starting November 7th 2019 IBIS confirmed. Hello Darth Vader dark force photos leaked are true. Thanks Nokhishita. CL/Q2 three buttons layout. But same buttons count as SL. Q2 modified sensor. Whatever that means. 5,990€ including VAT This Wednesday and Thursday workshops were for Leica sellers. First time they ever touched SL2. happy and sad at the same time, @ 6000 euro i'll be giving it a miss Q2 modified probably means for M lenses Edited October 10, 2019 by hillavoider Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmx_2 Posted October 10, 2019 Share #692 Posted October 10, 2019 I think the price point seems balanced and quite expected. Comparing with Sony A9 mkII, Canon 1Dx mkIII and Nikon D6, they are all in the same (rumoured) price range, and I think these are the cameras that Leica thinks their products should be compared with. It does put a lot of pressure on their own S-system though, even if that system is aimed at another customer base. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaemono Posted October 10, 2019 Share #693 Posted October 10, 2019 It’s a 48ish MPx sensor developed on the basis of the Q2 sensor. That’s how they communicate. And the question is, can they turn some of those 50 actual MPx of the Q2/S1R sensor into effective pixels to reach 48ish MPx in the SL2? And why bother? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
nicci78 Posted October 10, 2019 Share #694 Posted October 10, 2019 You can't, Q2 sensor is slightly bigger than 24x36. Everything outside is thrown away. Extra data is served to correct vignetting and distortion. Making the 26mm lens cropped into 28mm. You can still access these extra pixels with certain raw developer, such as Capture One. SL2, such as SL, will have a 24x36 sensor. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaemono Posted October 10, 2019 Share #695 Posted October 10, 2019 vor 22 Minuten schrieb mmx_2: I think the price point seems balanced and quite expected. Comparing with Sony A9 mkII, Canon 1Dx mkIII and Nikon D6, they are all in the same (rumoured) price range, and I think these are the cameras that Leica thinks their products should be compared with. These cameras have freakin’ fast AF systems and in the case of the α9 an awesome stacked BSI sensor that enables no-blackout EVF. vor 3 Minuten schrieb nicci78: You can't, Q2 sensor is slightly bigger than 24x36. Everything outside is thrown away. Extra data is served to correct vignetting and distortion. Making the 26mm lens cropped into 28mm. You can still access these extra pixels with certain raw developer, such as Capture One. SL2, such as SL, will have a 24x36 sensor. 😀 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmx_2 Posted October 10, 2019 Share #696 Posted October 10, 2019 5 minutes ago, Chaemono said: These cameras have freakin’ fast AF systems and in the case of the α9 an awesome stacked BSI sensor that enables no-blackout EVF. 😀 True, but Leica gives you access to the very finest lenses on the market (not that they others are bad, just that the Leica lenses tends to be better and always works best on their own bodies) and regarding AF, the SL AF is very fast under most conditions and to my experience, also very accurate. The black-out free EVF is definitely a strong selling point on the A9. Regarding AF-speed, handling etc, I think we have to wait until the camera actually is released and in the hands of us until we judge it too hard ;). My comment on tha price was merely that it reflects the competition and seems to be a market price. I would have almost expected a higher price (7000-8000€) given the usual "Leica tax" but in this case it seems more like a "market price" for the camera. There are always pros and cons for different similair products and cameras at this level these days are not any different. Frankly there are no "bad" products on the market and it all more boils down to personal preferences and "feeling". I've always liked the UI of Leica cameras, very straight forward and "simple". Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
frame-it Posted October 10, 2019 Share #697 Posted October 10, 2019 41 minutes ago, mmx_2 said: I think the price point seems balanced and quite expected. Comparing with Sony A9 mkII, Canon 1Dx mkIII and Nikon D6, they are all in the same (rumoured) price range, and I think these are the cameras that Leica thinks their products should be compared with. It does put a lot of pressure on their own S-system though, even if that system is aimed at another customer base. price range perhaps, but as mentioned above not in the same AF Class as the SL01. we are basically paying for the mount and hopefully a sensor that plays nice with wide angle M lenses.. on most cameras that size, there are usually 10-13 buttons on average anyways Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaemono Posted October 10, 2019 Share #698 Posted October 10, 2019 vor 9 Minuten schrieb frame-it: [...] we are basically paying for the mount and hopefully a sensor that plays nice with wide angle M lenses.. on most cameras that size, there are usually 10-13 buttons on average anyways Don’t be so pessimistic. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
nicci78 Posted October 10, 2019 Share #699 Posted October 10, 2019 Price is quite expected 900€ less than SL introduction price. And only 490€ more than the less expensive non promotional price of 5,500€ That’s explain why Leica was selling its last SL at 4,400€ only. The SL2 is only 1,500€ more. Quite nice for a new version with more pixels and IBIS. Just like brand Q and Q-P did not worth it at their discounted price. Who would buy a Q at 3,990€ when you get the Q2 at 4,790€ ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
frame-it Posted October 10, 2019 Share #700 Posted October 10, 2019 18 minutes ago, Chaemono said: Don’t be so pessimistic. funny. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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