"Vader" Certainly Isn't Any Prettier

[BernardC]

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3 hours ago, SlowDriver said:

I assume for your weddings you mostly use the zooms.

That's a strange assumption to make, but I see it a lot. None of the high-end wedding photographers that I've worked with have used zooms. Maybe they had a 70-210 packed in a second bag "just in case," but it never came out.

I am sure there are many exceptions, and things could be completely different in other markets, but it's far from given that a working wedding photographer will use zooms. If anything, I would make the opposite assumption from experience: a high-end wedding photographer will use primes and manual focus. We can all have our own theories as to why, it's just something that I have observed.

[Luca]

37 minutes ago, BernardC said:

That's a strange assumption to make, but I see it a lot. None of the high-end wedding photographers that I've worked with have used zooms. Maybe they had a 70-210 packed in a second bag "just in case," but it never came out.

I am sure there are many exceptions, and things could be completely different in other markets, but it's far from given that a working wedding photographer will use zooms. If anything, I would make the opposite assumption from experience: a high-end wedding photographer will use primes and manual focus. We can all have our own theories as to why, it's just something that I have observed.

For personal reasons I had to investigate a few things on gear used by Leica photographers in weddings, some considered in the top list as wedding photographers in the world.

Lots of them using zoom 24-90, and some prime lens 50/75/90 according to their wedding ideas.Second body being q2 or m10 or monochrome  with some Summilux prime 35/50/75.

this to my knowledge.

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[Guest]

2 hours ago, BernardC said:

That's a strange assumption to make, but I see it a lot. None of the high-end wedding photographers that I've worked with have used zooms. Maybe they had a 70-210 packed in a second bag "just in case," but it never came out.

I am sure there are many exceptions, and things could be completely different in other markets, but it's far from given that a working wedding photographer will use zooms. If anything, I would make the opposite assumption from experience: a high-end wedding photographer will use primes and manual focus. We can all have our own theories as to why, it's just something that I have observed.

It probably also depends on the format, eg. medium format shooters up till very recently have not had many zooms at their disposal.

And for the SL the primes are only starting to appear in the wild.  The 35mm is still back ordered in a lot of stores.  

That being said, the 24-90mm is a very versatile lens and I would be very surprised if it wasn't the most widely used lens also under wedding photographers.  

The post above seems to confirm that.  

[thighslapper]

1 hour ago, SlowDriver said:

And for the SL the primes are only starting to appear in the wild.  The 35mm is still back ordered in a lot of stores.  

It took me less than 24hrs a few weeks ago to source a 50/2.

Several dealers had a 35/2 in stock when I enquired and offered me one instead.  

Apart from waiting for a 50/2 apo M  because they went out of production due to 'the flare issue' I've managed to get hold of all my Leica gear when I wanted it ..... it just takes a bit of legwork on the internet, email and phone. 

Sitting on a 'waiting list' waiting for 'your' dealer to receive stock is not something I feel is necessary or desirable. I do patronise one particular dealership most of the time but have no hesitation in being unfaithful if the uncontrollable urge for a GAS fix takes me ...... 

Edited October 13, 2019 by thighslapper

[FlashGordonPhotography]

9 hours ago, SlowDriver said:

I probably should have been more specific in my post.  Friday I was shooting with the 35mm.  I assume for your weddings you mostly use the zooms.  I only have the 24-90mm and the 35mm and autofocus wise the 35mm is simply not as good as the zoom.  Too much back and forth hunting in low light.  It quite often still locks focus but it does so after going back and forth one or two times.  Otherwise it is obviously an excellent lens and weight is much more bearable than the zoom making it much more suitable as a carry with you lens.  Is it the case for the other primes as well that the autofocus is not as good as the zooms?

I use a mix. The three zooms, a 50mm SL Summilux and the 90mm Summicron. That's the kit that's always worked for me. The primes are definitely slower than the zooms AF wise but I've been doing this a looong time and so using manual focus or pre-focusing is natural to me. The SL does struggle in low light. The S1R with the same lenses is a different beast. It has no issues. All my lenses also focus faster on the S1R than the SL.

Gordon

[FlashGordonPhotography]

6 hours ago, BernardC said:

That's a strange assumption to make, but I see it a lot. None of the high-end wedding photographers that I've worked with have used zooms. Maybe they had a 70-210 packed in a second bag "just in case," but it never came out.

I am sure there are many exceptions, and things could be completely different in other markets, but it's far from given that a working wedding photographer will use zooms. If anything, I would make the opposite assumption from experience: a high-end wedding photographer will use primes and manual focus. We can all have our own theories as to why, it's just something that I have observed.

When I shot weddings with a pair of M9's I knew of exactly one photographer shooting only manual focus. Me. I do know photographers who shoot primes and those that shoot zooms. The vast majority shoot with a mix of both. But 99% shoot with autofocus all the time and younger photographers who didn't learn how to manual focus properly are the ones who always think they need 1Dx like AF at a wedding. Older buggers like me just use single shot AF and adapt when it all goes pear shaped. AF does make life a lot easier when there's a lot going on that you need to be aware of.

Gordon

[AZN]

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8 hours ago, thighslapper said:

I've managed to get hold of all my Leica gear when I wanted it ..... it just takes a bit of legwork on the internet, email and phone

And it helps an awful lot to be located in the Northern Hemisphere.  Down here in Oz it's blind luck and "Just be patient".

I paid and $AUD 700 deposit and waited 11 weeks before cancelling my APO 35mm lens order.  Learned my lesson and will never pre-order any equipment again.  Of course I got my deposit back, but that isn't the point.

Of course YMMV.

Edited October 14, 2019 by AZN

[Chaemono]

vor 7 Minuten schrieb AZN:

And it helps an awful lot to be located in the Northern Hemisphere.  Down here in Oz it's blind luck and "Just be patient".

I paid and $AUD 700 deposit and waited 11 weeks before cancelling my APO 35mm lens order.  Learned my lesson and will never pre-order any equipment again.  Of course I got my deposit back, but that isn't the point.

Of course YMMV.

I totally agree with thighslapper’s suggestion of “...... it just takes a bit of legwork on the internet, email and phone“ but you need to be ready to hop on a plane and get it. I took a train once. 😁

[sillbeers15]

2 hours ago, Chaemono said:

I totally agree with thighslapper’s suggestion of “...... it just takes a bit of legwork on the internet, email and phone“ but you need to be ready to hop on a plane and get it. I took a train once. 😁

That’s where the ‘Love - Hate’ relationship with Leica blossoms! 🤣

Edited October 14, 2019 by sillbeers15

[Joakim]

On 10/11/2019 at 9:09 AM, nicci78 said:

you've seen the leaked photos : bigger LCD but no tilt

Yeah you're right. Not sure why I forgot about those leaked photos. No tilt is a negative for me but what is the most important is how well this (supposedly) 47 Mpixel sensor handles M lenses and specially the wide ones. If it does it really well then I will have a hard time not buying a SL2...

Edited October 14, 2019 by Joakim

[nicci78]

@Joakim Jean-Marie Sépulcre, one of the best french optics tester has tested most of M, R and SL lenses with Lumix S1R.

Its take is that only the oldest M lenses will not be good enough with 47MP. But others will be OK. 

Most R lenses are OK too, with the Macro-APO-Elmarit-R 100mm f/2.8 being the absolute best R lens for 47MP

All SL lenses are fantastic with 47MP sensor. The best solution. 

 

Leica lenses are made for high resolution. You do not have to be afraid of using them with 47MP sensor. 

Edited October 14, 2019 by nicci78

[Chaemono]

It’s good to know that most Leica lenses have enough resolving power to benefit from a higher res sensor. How about corner performance on the S1R, though? Will the SL2 be a better choice in this regard?

[Joakim]

1 hour ago, nicci78 said:

@Joakim Jean-Marie Sépulcre, one of the best french optics tester has tested most of M, R and SL lenses with Lumix S1R.

Its take is that only the oldest M lenses will not be good enough with 47MP. But others will be OK. 

Most R lenses are OK too, with the Macro-APO-Elmarit-R 100mm f/2.8 being the absolute best R lens for 47MP

All SL lenses are fantastic with 47MP sensor. The best solution. 

 

Leica lenses are made for high resolution. You do not have to be afraid of using them with 47MP sensor. 

That is not my problem, I have the Nikon Z7 with a M adapter so I know they can handle the resolution but the question is how the image quality is specially off-center. When someone says that M lenses will be OK I  am not really interested because OK I can get from my Z7 (which I believe handles M lenses better than S1R) but I am looking for Excellent, on par with M cameras like the M10 or very close.

I would never pay Leica prices for a camera that that doesn't outperform the competition when it comes to M lenses. The SL lenses and specially the Summicroms looks great and I would probably invest in one or two if I got the SL2 but I am not going to buy it for that reason alone.

Edited October 14, 2019 by Joakim

[nicci78]

You get the answer from Jono Slack review of S1 and of new Summicron-M 28mm f/2 asph (2016)

M10 will be the absolute best camera for M lenses, better than SL. Because it has the off shift micro lenses and the slimmest stack filter.

Beside digital M cameras, SL will still be better than any other brands, thanks to :

• thin stack sensor, but not as thin as digital M
• in camera automatic software corrections. Through 6-bit coding read by M-Adapter-L
• corrections are adjusted to guessed aperture setting. Thanks to special sensor present in digital M and SL cameras only. 

Lumix S1/S1R, get the focal length information from the 6-bits coding used by M-Adapter-L. But no software correction at all. 

 

SL will benefit from newest M lenses optimisation for corner sharpness. No problem with R lenses. If you want absolute best performance, stick with SL lenses. 

 

 

 

Edited October 14, 2019 by nicci78

[bags27]

1 hour ago, nicci78 said:

@Joakim Jean-Marie Sépulcre, one of the best french optics tester has tested most of M, R and SL lenses with Lumix S1R.

Its take is that only the oldest M lenses will not be good enough with 47MP. But others will be OK. 

Wondering what qualifies for oldest: for example,  Summicron 35 v2, 3, or 4? And what is “good enough”? Does that mean the lens doesn’t take full advantage of the sensor or that the demands of the sensor actually diminish the overall acuity of the lens? In other words, might older M lenses actually draw better on (say) the SL or CL than on the SL2?

[BernardC]

14 hours ago, FlashGordonPhotography said:

younger photographers who didn't learn how to manual focus properly are the ones who always think they need 1Dx like AF at a wedding

Here's the deal about "younger" photographers shooting weddings: 95% of them won't be around next season, they will be replaced by another batch of young photographers.

Youth is just coincidental, that's the time in people's lives when they can follow different roads, see where they lead.

You are correct that those photographers rely on AF and zooms, because they are told that those things are important. They are a marketer's dream come true.

I stand by my statement regarding established high-end photographers. Totally different game.

[Chaemono]

High-end wedding photographers use film: http://www.jeremychou.com/

 

[LocalHero1953]

OK, let's get back to the misty meeting ground of speculation, hope and reality

We think we know what the SL2 will look like, that it may have 47MP, IBIS, a physical Still/Cine switch, and buttons more like the M10 than the SL. That leaves plenty of space for speculation before the other shoe drops in a few [days/weeks/months] time. I hope it will have:

- More user profile slots, and separate user profiles for still and video (depending on the switch position). The CL has 6 and it's not enough. I could use 10.
- More intelligent updating of user profiles (e.g. if I change my Auto ISO setup, I want to assign those changes to specific user profiles - I don't want to have to edit the profiles individually).
- Multiple shooting assist tools on one screen, like the CL (e.g. histogram, horizon, focus peaking).
- Oh, and a more accurate horizon.
- Assigning toggle functions directly to custom buttons (e.g. AF/MF, Face/Spot, IS on/off).
- Pro industry standard flash interface (I doubt this will happen, so soon after the recent SF60 etc launch).
- Face detect recognises people with beards! I recently shot a one-man musical where face detect didn't recognise him at all because he had a big beard. In the same light it had no trouble picking out the show director etc.
- Built in Arca-Swiss QR grip on the base plate.
- An extra strap lug at the bottom of the body, to make it easier to attach a handstrap.
- Built in 3.5mm mic socket, so we don't need the fiddly (and expensive) adapter.
- And of course no LENR, and no 30 min video limit.
 

Edited October 14, 2019 by LocalHero1953

[helged]

53 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

OK, let's get back to the misty meeting ground of speculation, hope and reality

We think we know what the SL2 will look like, that it may have 47MP, IBIS, a physical Still/Cine switch, and buttons more like the M10 than the SL. That leaves plenty of space for speculation before the other shoe drops in a few [days/weeks/months] time. I hope it will have:

- More user profile slots, and separate user profiles for still and video (depending on the switch position). The CL has 6 and it's not enough. I could use 10.
- More intelligent updating of user profiles (e.g. if I change my Auto ISO setup, I want to assign those changes to specific user profiles - I don't want to have to edit the profiles individually).
- Multiple shooting assist tools on one screen, like the CL (e.g. histogram, horizon, focus peaking).
- Oh, and a more accurate horizon.
- Assigning toggle functions directly to custom buttons (e.g. AF/MF, Face/Spot, IS on/off).
- Pro industry standard flash interface (I doubt this will happen, so soon after the recent SF60 etc launch).
- Face detect recognises people with beards! I recently shot a one-man musical where face detect didn't recognise him at all because he had a big beard. In the same light it had no trouble picking out the show director etc.
- Built in Arca-Swiss QR grip on the base plate.
- An extra strap lug at the bottom of the body, to make it easier to attach a handstrap.
- Built in 3.5mm mic socket, so we don't need the fiddly (and expensive) adapter.
- And of course no LENR, and no 30 min video limit.
 

Biggest (positive) surprise for me would be optional LENR...

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[Mr.Q]

6 hours ago, Joakim said:

That is not my problem, I have the Nikon Z7 with a M adapter so I know they can handle the resolution but the question is how the image quality is specially off-center. When someone says that M lenses will be OK I  am not really interested because OK I can get from my Z7 (which I believe handles M lenses better than S1R) but I am looking for Excellent, on par with M cameras like the M10 or very close.

I would never pay Leica prices for a camera that that doesn't outperform the competition when it comes to M lenses. The SL lenses and specially the Summicroms looks great and I would probably invest in one or two if I got the SL2 but I am not going to buy it for that reason alone.

The SL is the best non-M camera to shoot M lenses, followed by a Kolari-modded FF MILC, followed your Z7.  I'd expect the SL2 sensor to be optimized for M lenses, but it will fall short of M cameras.