rumors SL2 with 36MP sensor only

[nicci78]

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With a shrinking market. And semiconductor companies mostly interested into smartphone, automotive and CCTV market. There is not many options left for large photo sensor manufacturing. 

- Canon, only build for themselves. 

- Sony, the IP and market leader with 70% of share. 

- TowerJazz a dwarf among the other two.

 

 

Sony won the party after buying Toshiba semi. Its biggest competitor. 

Aptina gave up years ago with Nikon One fiasco

Panasonic gave up after Olympus chose Sony for its m4/3 and throws Lumix into Sony and TowerJazz arms. 

 

Leica will not have many options than choosing the leader Sony. 

Edited August 26, 2019 by nicci78

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The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[caissa]

Leica have a long collaboration with Panasonic. The SL is using mainly Pana technology. AF and maybe also IBIS (hopefully in SL2). I wonder where the S3 sensor comes from. Is it sony ?   Probably not.

Why would they suddenly jump ship and choose Sony. Sounds not like Leica who is usually making only small changes. Furthermore it is putting all eggs into one sony basket - also strange. And the well known procedure to go from Q to SL ....  Why would Leica change that ?

If you have a longstanding collaboration, why would you stop that (for no reason I heard of) and support instead a competitor, which Sony is ?   All these decisions have been made many months (years ?) ago, it is not even clear if they use the sony EVF (like Lumix S) or continue with an epson version... (even if it is not the latest, I still like the SL EVF, in my eyes it is still good enough for the SL2).   (5.76 to 4.4 ; linearly it is only a small improvement of 14.4% )

Let's assume the Q2 sensor had too much noise. Then it can pobably be improved by firmware (S1R is better e.g.). So Leica could build a camera right now and improve it later. I think this also happened at the beginning of the SL (One of the earliest firmware releases improved IQ in higher ISOs on the SL).

Edited August 26, 2019 by caissa

[nicci78]

Panasonic do not make new sensor for years !

And Leica has never used Panasonic sensor. Never. Only Sony’s for all APS-C. And Kodak ,CMOSYS, Toshiba or TowerJazz  

Olympus stabbed them in the back by choosing Sony for its m4/3 since the E-M1 ! 

Making Panasonic own sensor manufacturing unsustainable. 

Great move from Sony for killing three birds with one stone : get a new customer Olympus, kill Panasonic sensor activity then get Panasonic as a new customer ! Awesome. 

Sony was one of Olympus biggest share holder at that time. After Olympus stock manipulation fiasco. 

Edited August 26, 2019 by nicci78

[caissa]

I do not understand the business interconnections, but it looks as if TowerJazz took over the Panasonic factories (51% ) ?!  So they are close to Pana ?!  https://www.eenewsanalog.com/news/tower-takes-revenue-hit-panasonic-extension

Is the S3 sensor from TowerJazz ? Someone already made the calculations: 64 MP for S3 would mean about 42 MP in FF (like the current a7R). That would be acceptable. But again, why not simply go the trodden path from Q to SL ....   (low risc, for a low budget)

And is Panasonic without a big success in the S1R ? Maybe, we do not really know the numbers they sell. And if they sell badly, then it is certainly also because of their very strange pricing. (3000$ in US, but up to 4500$ in Central Europe) This will certainly not help selling a new relatively unknown product in a developing market. (Not because the sensor is "not good enough").

Edited August 26, 2019 by caissa

[nicci78]

There are two different things 

TowerJazz is totally indépendant. It is an Israelo-US semiconductor company. With factories across the world. Mainly in Israel and USA  

Then TowerJazz Panasonic semiconductors is  joint venture between TowerJazz 🇮🇱 🇺🇸 and Panasonic 🇯🇵 

After Panasonic gave up sensor manufacturing. They need someone able to use its manufacturing capacity. Therefore the joint venture with TowerJazz. In a way, Panasonic are lending its Japanese factories to TowerJazz. That’s all. But people get confused and think that TowerJazz is part of Panasonic. Which is not true at all. 

Edited August 26, 2019 by nicci78

[Chaemono]

vor 43 Minuten schrieb caissa:

If you have a longstanding collaboration, why would you stop that (for no reason I heard of) and support instead a competitor, which Sony is ?

Sony Semiconductor Solutions (SSS) is part of the Imaging & Sensing Solutions segment. Sony’s camera business is part of Electronics Products & Solutions. They each have their own P&L. Hence, there is every incentive for SSS to support each customer, including Leica. Panasonic with the L-mount alliance is equally if not more of a competitor now who is looking to take SL users away from Leica. Just look at thighslapper, Don, Helge and others on this forum.

vor 43 Minuten schrieb caissa:

Let's assume the Q2 sensor had too much noise. Then it can pobably be improved by firmware (S1R is better e.g.). So Leica could build a camera right now and improve it later. I think this also happened at the beginning of the SL (One of the earliest firmware releases improved IQ in higher ISOs on the SL).

I’ll post comparisons S1R with a 47 MPx FF FSI sensor vs. SL2 with a 36 MPx FF BSI sensor for DR, color sensitivity, noise. We’ll see how well Panasonic’s firmware can compensate. This will help to settle the debate on why Leica went with Sony as a sensor supplier for the SL2 and didn’t just repackage the S1R in a body with a red dot and charge 2.5x more for it. 😂

[caissa]

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In reply to nicci

Yes, but I did not say that they belong to Pana, but instead that they cooperate with Pana. And Leica (as we heard ? rumors ?) cooperates with TJ.  And where does Pana get the S1R sensor from ?   And where does Leica get the Q2 sensor from ?   I do not know, but it looks as if Leica has more in common with TJ than with Sony ?!

Edited August 26, 2019 by caissa

[caissa]

We know that Sony has a strange understanding of user friendlyness. If Leica would take all the Sony technology (instead of Pana technology) and not even the best (which is probably reserved for the a7R iv ) but only the secondbest what would be the improvement/gain for us users ?    A sony clone instead of a panasonic clone. And even at lower performance/resolution ....       Not really sexy !    (Great, I save a lot of money and wait for the next upgrade ! )  

If you don't have your own technology, then it is always some sort of clone. (inevitably)

Edited August 26, 2019 by caissa

[Chaemono]

vor 17 Minuten schrieb caissa:

Yes, but I did not say that they belong to Pana, but instead that they cooperate with Pana. And Leica (as we heard ? rumors ?) cooperates with TJ.  And where does Pana get the S1R sensor from ?   And where does Leica get the Q2 sensor from ?   I do not know, but it looks as if Leica has more in common with TJ than Sony ?!

They are cooperating with Panasonic and they may have a bit more in common with TJ than Sony. They just chose a better sensor to differentiate the SL2 from Panasonic’s FF bodies, give L-mount users more choice (nothing wrong with more choice), AND kick some S1R butt to win some former Leica customers back. Nothing wrong with that. To paraphrase Gordon Gekko ‘competition is good, competition is right, competition works.’ 😁

vor 11 Minuten schrieb caissa:

A sony clone instead of a panasonic clone. 

Leica SL can never be a Sony clone because Sony cameras don’t take SL lenses natively, Panasonic bodies do. 

vor 11 Minuten schrieb caissa:

And even at lower performance ....

The Sony 36 MPx sensor has in many ways higher performance than the 60 MPx α7R IV, larger and, therefore, more sensitive pixels, faster, on-chip PDAF, 10 fps at 16 bit, 20 fps at 14 but, 8K video. Megapixel fetishists may, of course, have different needs. 😁

[caissa]

If Gekko had used a camera, then he would have said two things:  Cropping works better (is more useful) than 20 frames per second. And what is DR ? What can I buy for it ?    (And he likes noise, a lot of noise     he is not so much the sensitive guy    )

And seriously: He would not have liked the Sony colors. Just had a look at first pics with the a7R iv (dpreview) and the portraits (skin tones) were terrible. One man (business type) had a really terrible orange hue. He looked kind of unnatural and would probably not have paid much for this photo.  

Edited August 26, 2019 by caissa

[michali]

On 8/24/2019 at 7:20 PM, thighslapper said:

In one of my more depressed moments I did predict months ago that the SL2 pixel count would be 36mpx ....... mainly because everything pointed to them continuing with the Maestro 2 processor which I doubted would handle 48mpx, fast frame rates, video, a hi res EVF, IBIS and stay cool enough not to require LENR in a similar sized body. 

However the S1R manages all that and has DR as good, if not better than most of its FF competitors with the only downside being the bigger body and a few hundred extra grams in weight. 

I'm not sure what an SL2 is going to give me anything that the SR1 hasn't got ...... apart from a red dot and a heftier wallop on my credit card. 

Leica have a philosophy of doing 'what photographers need' rather than what they want ..... which may have been fine when market conditions were considerably rosier than they are now.

The SL at least had a pixel count comparative to the mainstream when it was released ....... but 36mpx is so far off the current pro-amateur crop that it could hardly be labelled as Leica's 'Flagship Product' successor to the SL2 ... which was fairly innovative and unique at the time.

If it has similar specs to the S1R, count me in ..... if not, the S1R is plenty good enough and pleasant enough to use for me to save my money and invest in some photo jollies abroad instead ...

I agree with you. 

I've made an unfair comparison with the images below, and not really comparing like for like. Here's the primary reason why I bought the S1R. Purely from a personal perspective the SL2 will have to match or better this for me to consider it. Additionally the S1R gives me the ability to use some excellent 3rd party lenses, which Leica have blocked us from using on their bodies.

Both images were shot under identical conditions and both with the Leica Vario Elmar L90-280mm. Straight out of camera Jpegs no post processing.

S1R image on the left & SL on right. 

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[Chaemono]

24 MPx pictures always look shoft, especially close-ups. Imagine if one were to crop. The 24 MPx SL picture would simply become too blurry.

Edited August 26, 2019 by Chaemono

[thighslapper]

despite all the above I would still come back to the statement on the S3 .....  

a brand new, Leica-specific 64 megapixel CMOS chip....exclusive sensor architecture This is a custom design .... and Leica have used Towerjazz & CMOSIS  in the past for the M ..... and a quote from last year .....

1) TowerJazz announced a new 25 megapixel global shutter sensor with 2.5 micron pixel size.
2) TowerJazz also developed a new generation of sensors with up to 100 Megapixel
3) There is a new major partnership with a “leading DSLR camera supplier”. Not sure if that means Nikon, Leica or Panasonic itself. I know they use the “DSLR” term but they might just mean system camera.

If it is 36mpx (or bigger) I would put my money on the original plans being a custom Towerjazz or CMOSIS sensor. Leica are quoted in saying they were 'surprised by the Panasonic S1 and S1R' when they appeared but were unfazed by the specifications. I doubt if Leica ..... being sober and meticulous teutonic manufacturers ..... would change sensors or specifications at the last minute. Any delays are more likely to be due to fine tuning as they are not in the business of using early adopters as beta testers (*) like some companies..... or clearing the backlog of Q2 orders. They can stick any old FF sensor in the Q2 as it has a fixed lens and limited functionality. On their flagship products Leica consistently tend to use custom sensors (**).... but any old stuff in the rest of the product line. 

(*) although this has happened unwittingly in the past as they found their feet in the digital world ....

(**) did anyone ever find out the source of the SL & M10 sensors .... ?????

Edited August 26, 2019 by thighslapper

[lct]

2 hours ago, nicci78 said:

Another bonus, SL2 will not be in direct competition with S1-S1R duo. 

Would you mind to elaborate? Just curious as i can't seem to understand why photographers would spend $6k+ for a 36MP Leica camera while Panasonic offers a 100% compatible 47MP camera for half that price. 

[Chaemono]

I like the logic in thighslapper’s post. I don’t insist on Sony. But because of some of the posts here, I think Sony is more likely. 

vor 1 Minute schrieb lct:

Just curious as i can't seem to understand why photographers would spend $6k+ for a 36MP Leica camera while Panasonic offers a 100% compatible 47MP camera for half that price. 

Could someone, please, help and calculate the price per pixel in order to compare. 😂

[Mr.Q]

Do any of the TowerJazz sensors even support PDAF? AF-C performance is quite laughable in the Q2. Panasonic needs to stop with their DFD nonsense because everyone knows it doesn't work. Please give us a SL2 with AF-C performance that is at least respectable in 2019. Eye-AF with the Summicron-SL's would be incredible.

[tom0511]

vor 44 Minuten schrieb michali:

I agree with you. 

I've made an unfair comparison with the images below, and not really comparing like for like. Here's the primary reason why I bought the S1R. Purely from a personal perspective the SL2 will have to match or better this for me to consider it. Additionally the S1R gives me the ability to use some excellent 3rd party lenses, which Leica have blocked us from using on their bodies.

Both images were shot under identical conditions and both with the Leica Vario Elmar L90-280mm. Straight out of camera Jpegs no post processing.

S1R image on the left & SL on right. 

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something went wrong wth this SL image, either noise reduction, shake or wrong focus or a combination. This image does not show what the SL with the 90-280 is capable of in my experience.

[michali]

1 hour ago, tom0511 said:

something went wrong wth this SL image, either noise reduction, shake or wrong focus or a combination. This image does not show what the SL with the 90-280 is capable of in my experience.

Don't want to belabour the point, as I said earlier it's not a fair comparison. The picture of Kleo my cat in my previous post was taken in shade.  The pics below are in full sunlight, again with the  Vario Elmar L90-280mm @ 280mm on both cameras with the same settings and no PP. Both cameras have in-camera-sharpening and all the other BS turned off.

My point is that the Lumix S1R is really that good, plus it offers compatibility with excellent 3rd party lenses. So let's see what the SL2 can deliver....

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Edited August 26, 2019 by michali

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[bags27]

I can well understand why one might prefer the Panny to the SL on the above: the Panny photo is certainly more pleasing as represented in low res, web posting, But, frankly, I can understand the reverse preference as well, and one that I hold. I think the detail around the right eye (our left) is far better rendered by the SL; indeed, overall detail on the SL photo seems better to me, and there is far, far more realistic rendering on the SL photo of the plain between nose and right ear. That the Panny photo is a bit brighter is just something to adjust to taste in post. I can't tell which is truer to the actual colors without seeing the object, but again, fixable. I sense that there is a bit more noise in the SL photo, but the photos aren't lined up exactly the same, and there is more brownish background on the SL photo to give the impression of greater noise.

[Chaemono]

This tells me that the Sony sensor is highly likely in the SL2 because Panasonic folks are getting desperate. 😂