rumors SL2 with 36MP sensor only

[Agent M10]

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12 minutes ago, nicci78 said:

They used Sony sensor for every APS-C since 2009. What stops them from using the 24x36 one ? Everything is possible. Because there is an existing relationship between them. 

By the way Panasonic S1 24MP sensor is made by Sony. 

Everything is possible. But what is probable? That Leica would ditch its current FF manufacturer? Sheesh.

[Jeff S]

20 minutes ago, nicci78 said:

It was a new version of every camera lines every 3 years before the M10, Q2 and now SL2 new 4 years span. 

M8 2006 -> M9 2009 -> M 240 2012

T 2014 -> TL2 2017

S2 2009 -> S 006 2012 -> S 007 2015

X1 2009 -> X2 2012 -> X 113 2014 (actually 2.5 years later in this case) 

 

 

Right, but I should have specified recent trend to four years instead of three... true for M240 to M10; S007 to S3; and now SL to SL2.  

Jeff

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[nicci78]

6 minutes ago, Agent M10 said:

Everything is possible. But what is probable? That Leica would ditch its current FF manufacturer? Sheesh.

Didn’t they ditch Kodak before ? Then CMOSIS later ? M10, Q or SL sensor are may be made by different sources : TowerJazz ? former Toshiba (bought by Sony) ? 

You choose the best partner. However please not that Leica custom designed its sensor by itself. Whoever made it is not a problem at all. 

They can get a discount if they switch all full frame sensor manufacturing to Sony. Is there a reason to only buy their APS-C sensor and not 24x36 ? 

[Chaemono]

vor 12 Minuten schrieb Agent M10:

That Leica would ditch its current FF manufacturer? Sheesh.

You think he’s gonna be hurt?

[jaapv]

Which manufacturer? Each model appears to have a different one.

[thighslapper]

In one of my more depressed moments I did predict months ago that the SL2 pixel count would be 36mpx ....... mainly because everything pointed to them continuing with the Maestro 2 processor which I doubted would handle 48mpx, fast frame rates, video, a hi res EVF, IBIS and stay cool enough not to require LENR in a similar sized body. 

However the S1R manages all that and has DR as good, if not better than most of its FF competitors with the only downside being the bigger body and a few hundred extra grams in weight. 

I'm not sure what an SL2 is going to give me anything that the SR1 hasn't got ...... apart from a red dot and a heftier wallop on my credit card. 

Leica have a philosophy of doing 'what photographers need' rather than what they want ..... which may have been fine when market conditions were considerably rosier than they are now.

The SL at least had a pixel count comparative to the mainstream when it was released ....... but 36mpx is so far off the current pro-amateur crop that it could hardly be labelled as Leica's 'Flagship Product' successor to the SL2 ... which was fairly innovative and unique at the time.

If it has similar specs to the S1R, count me in ..... if not, the S1R is plenty good enough and pleasant enough to use for me to save my money and invest in some photo jollies abroad instead ...

[Chaemono]

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It’s an understandable reaction to think that fewer MPx in the SL2 than current models that can take SL lenses natively is a step backwards, especially since IBIS makes a high ISO setting in low light virtually unnecessary for the S1R, for avoidance of camera shake that is, not of motion blur.  Those who want more DR,  better color sensitivity bit depth above native ISO, and malleable files, will likely want to see S1R/SL2 side by side, over/under comparisons. This is me. I won’t post shots above ISO 800 in order not to p!ss people off who don’t use higher than ISO 400 on the S1R anyway due to IBIS (I will likely include them in the link, though 😁). Somehow I have a feeling that the 36 MPx Sony sensor will kick @ss, not only because of bigger pixels with better sensitivity but also because of Sony engineers’ signal processing expertise and  Sony Semiconductor Solutions manufacturing capabilities. I refer to the link I posted in #22.

BTW, just the inclusion of PDAF alone would make the SL2 superior to the Panasonic FF bodies anyway IMO.

 

[colonel]

Exactly

Why 36 mp only ?

the SL is a professional model designed for speed. The A9 has just 24 Mp

36 is fine

 

[thighslapper]

14 minutes ago, colonel said:

Exactly

Why 36 mp only ?

the SL is a professional model designed for speed. The A9 has just 24 Mp

36 is fine

 

Yes ...... but you have to consider that the Leica enthusiasts on the forum are not 'normal' consumers.

If the SL2 comes anywhere near A9 speed performance I'll eat my underpants publicly on youtube. 

At 36mpx and without some other startlingly good performance feature a fair few of us Leica diehards will not even bother to upgrade.

..... and how are you going to tempt other non SL users to switch cameras for a 'unique Leica experience' unless the on-paper specifications offer something worth paying twice the price of the current competition. The high mpx Sony, Nikon and Panasonics are all great all round performers with a range of excellent optics. 

The Leica lenses are undoubtedly all superb, but like moving to MF the cost of changing a whole system is prohibitive unless there is a unique selling point that offers more than just a red dot and bragging rights. 

I live in hope that I will be exchanging my S1R for a shiny new SL2 for Christmas, but will not be surprised if I am underwhelmed and decide to stick with Panasonic. 

 

[Chaemono]

“The 36MP sensor is a FAST sensor with on-chip AF, perfect for sports at high continuous shooting rates.”

https://www.eoshd.com/2018/11/sony-develops-8k-60p-full-frame-sensor-does-this-explain-the-a7s-iii-delay/

So, Leica will position the SL as a camera for fast action and video. It makes sense. Mirrorless MF cameras like the X1D II will eat their lunch for landscape photography. 

[Jeff S]

IBIS in the SL2 would alone encourage me to consider it in lieu of the X1Dii, especially if the form factor and handling compares favorably to the Hasselblad, which is exemplary in that regard.  The Lumix body and interface don’t appeal.  36 vs 47 MP is irrelevant to me if all else satisfies, including I hope an even more ‘natural’ EVF experience, which I surprisingly found when recently playing with the Nikon Z7, despite its lower EVF resolution.

I wouldn’t try to predict sales appeal given the many different needs and preferences leading to individual purchase decisions.

Jeff

Edited August 24, 2019 by Jeff S

[colonel]

1 hour ago, Chaemono said:

“The 36MP sensor is a FAST sensor with on-chip AF, perfect for sports at high continuous shooting rates.”

https://www.eoshd.com/2018/11/sony-develops-8k-60p-full-frame-sensor-does-this-explain-the-a7s-iii-delay/

So, Leica will position the SL as a camera for fast action and video. It makes sense. Mirrorless MF cameras like the X1D II will eat their lunch for landscape photography. 

Not convinced. Seen award winning landscape photographers use 4/3s

the idea that more pixels and Medium format tempts all landscape photographers is baloney (appropriating US culture here  )

maybe 20 years ago, maybe the well healed ones. Even landscape photographers take other picture in between their hikes to the Scottish highlands at sunrise

 

[Agent M10]

4 hours ago, Chaemono said:

It’s an understandable reaction to think that fewer MPx in the SL2 than current models that can take SL lenses natively is a step backwards, especially since IBIS makes a high ISO setting in low light virtually unnecessary for the S1R, for avoidance of camera shake that is, not of motion blur.  Those who want more DR,  better color sensitivity bit depth above native ISO, and malleable files, will likely want to see S1R/SL2 side by side, over/under comparisons. This is me. I won’t post shots above ISO 800 in order not to p!ss people off who don’t use higher than ISO 400 on the S1R anyway due to IBIS (I will likely include them in the link, though 😁). Somehow I have a feeling that the 36 MPx Sony sensor will kick @ss, not only because of bigger pixels with better sensitivity but also because of Sony engineers’ signal processing expertise and  Sony Semiconductor Solutions manufacturing capabilities. I refer to the link I posted in #22.

BTW, just the inclusion of PDAF alone would make the SL2 superior to the Panasonic FF bodies anyway IMO.

 

Where does the information that the SL will have a "36 MPx Sony sensor"? And why would Leica move away from Panasonic when it has such a terrific association with them? And why not just buy a Sony camera if you're so sold on Sony's sensor and AF? Personally, I like Leica's go-it-alone attitude. 

[sillbeers15]

Leica Camera is in the business of producing and selling of cameras and lenses. Therefore similar to another other maker, it needs to balance between:

1.  What it thinks it’s customers want;

2.  What components are currently available (including sensor as Leica does not produce its own sensor);

3.  Manufacturing cost vs volume and price.

Leica Q2 is the mule to SL2 by being available before SL2. Like Q is to SL. So processing power and sensor of SL2 will likely be the same to Q2 (hardware).

Else do not think and ask for too much in deviation as it is unlikely to happen. If my rational makes sense then the spec of SL2 would have likely been fixed when the Q2 and Pana S1R was announced. Prototypes of SL2 are likely already in the hands of beta testers and Leica Engineers busy sorting out software bugs now.

Edited August 25, 2019 by sillbeers15

[Chaemono]

vor 3 Stunden schrieb Agent M10:

Where does the information that the SL will have a "36 MPx Sony sensor"? 

See my post #44 “this is very far fetched speculation. Fun to engage in it, though.” 😁 

vor 3 Stunden schrieb Agent M10:

And why would Leica move away from Panasonic when it has such a terrific association with them? 

To differentiate their offering from Panasonic.

vor 3 Stunden schrieb Agent M10:

And why not just buy a Sony camera if you're so sold on Sony's sensor and AF? 

I have a Sony camera, an a7R III.

vor 3 Stunden schrieb Agent M10:

Personally, I like Leica's go-it-alone attitude. 

Personally, I like Leica to use a Sony Sensor, but not with more than 36 MPx. See post #22.

The better the algorithms the less small pixels suck. Sony arguably has the best expertise to improve on this over time. I think that the small pixels in the α7R III are in certain situations inferior to the 24 MPx in the M10 and that the algos can’t always compensate effectively. I’m really excited that Leica based on Nicci’s information went for “only” 36 MPx in the SL2.

From the link below:

“One of the drawbacks to miniaturization is that sensitivity declines...As pixels become smaller, the sensitivity inevitably declines. In other words, the quality of the resulting image will also decline or the noise will increase, hindering all the functions that we have already achieved,...Since miniaturization of pixels inevitably results in a decline in sensor characteristics, our role was to compensate through signal processing [algorithms].”

https://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/technology/stories/IMX586/index.html

[Chaemono]

vor 10 Minuten schrieb sillbeers15:

Leica Q2 is the mule to SL2 by being available before SL2. Like Q is to SL. So processing power and sensor of SL2 will likely be the same to Q2 (hardware).

With all due respect, I think Nicci knows more at this point than you or I do.

[sillbeers15]

Yes. No one knows for certain at this point. But if it has been a success story for Q & SL, there is little doubt why would Leica do otherwise.

[Chaemono]

vor 24 Minuten schrieb sillbeers15:

Yes. No one knows for certain at this point.

The French reseller does.

vor 25 Minuten schrieb sillbeers15:

But if it has been a success story for Q & SL, there is little doubt why would Leica do otherwise.

By the same logic, the S1R is selling poorly, so Leica should do otherwise. 

[nicci78]

47 MP from the Q2 is not state of the art. After using the Q2 after two months. I am not impressed at all. This sensor does not worth the trouble upgrading from Q. 

High ISO is worst that original Q. 

ISO 50 is buggy with blown out highlights caused by unreliable live histogram. Drives me crazy. 

Q2 is noticeably slower than Q. With a broken face detect AF. 

Q2 processor is too slow to handle 47MP. 

SL2 should have way faster CPU. 

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[colonel]

Reminding folk that Leica sensors for the SL are custom designed and have angled micro lenses at the edge. This is the kind of specialisation you are getting that’s different. All Leica FF and MF sensors have been custom designed. Only it’s ApS-C and smaller ones are off the shelf

The over sized, over weight, over buttoned Panasonic FF cameras with their last generation AF are a poor benchmark for what Leica must do. I think the SL (Version 1) is better then these cameras in every way, especially speed. I would also rather have the 24mp Leica sensor with thinner glass and angled micro lenses then the Panasonic S1R sensor, but that’s just me.

As someone who has used the latest generation of Canon, Nikon and the last generation of Sony FF mirrorless, I would unhesitatingly pick Sony if I was on a smaller budget and Leica if I had more budget bandwidth. In some ways this is exactly what Leica must be trying to achieve in the market. It has to sell 10000s of cameras, not 100000s 

Edited August 25, 2019 by colonel