tom0511 Posted August 21, 2019 Share #381 Posted August 21, 2019 Advertisement (gone after registration) vor 22 Stunden schrieb caissa: This lens really shows the tragedy of the SL system to me. Of course it is great that we have now the top 50mm Apo lens for the SL. But at the same time it is a bit clumsy. And the exceptional MTF graphs do not convert to exceptional photos. Or just in very rare circumstances. With the Sigma 2.8/45mm probably very similar photographic results can be achieved with a much handier lens. So I actually miss the equivalent of the good old 50mm Summicron, or even better would I like a 60mm Macro. Great if it could be 2.0 instead of 2.8 . The (humble) optical quality of these lenses is actually what I need, and the relatively small size (about half the size of the new lens). In his report Jono Slack has destroyed the old 50mm Mandler Summicron, the MTF graphs are really terrible (what a shame Mr. Mandler). Still I am so stubborn to say, I prefer the old lens, because it gave me 30 years the quality I needed. (Obviously not everybody has the talent to make good use of the highest quality lenses.) So the new Apo Summicron will be a famous lens, many will write about it and many will lust for it. But in the end it is not exactly the ideal lens for practical photography. (Too expensive, optically too good, too big, too obtrusive, maybe also too slow regarding AF, not really close focusing with only 1:5 ratio .). So yes, congratulations to this master lens ! But at the same time it is easy to see how a much better lens could have been constructed. This I find tragic. And yes, maybe this “better” lens would not find as many buyers, because it would not fulfill so many superlatives. This I see as the tragedy of Leica. (Forced to chase superlatives, instead of producing the best lenses for practical use). (I am no fan of Fuji, but I think they have succeeded to jump right into that gap.) The only tragedy I see is the long wait for this lens. If you want a smaller lens, for a lower price and optically less optimized I would think a Leica CL and a 35/1.4 TL lens could serve you very well. One big reason why I pay so much for Leica lenses is that they are sharp but still draw gentle. I cant comment on the 50 Summicron yet but some other lenses. I think lenses like the Summicrons are the reason why people buy Leica cameras and lenses. 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted August 21, 2019 Posted August 21, 2019 Hi tom0511, Take a look here Is the S1/S1R a good backup camera for SL. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
jonoslack Posted August 21, 2019 Share #382 Posted August 21, 2019 4 hours ago, tom0511 said: The only tragedy I see is the long wait for this lens. If you want a smaller lens, for a lower price and optically less optimized I would think a Leica CL and a 35/1.4 TL lens could serve you very well. One big reason why I pay so much for Leica lenses is that they are sharp but still draw gentle. I cant comment on the 50 Summicron yet but some other lenses. I think lenses like the Summicrons are the reason why people buy Leica cameras and lenses. HI Tom I couldn't agree more - on all counts "sharp but still draw gentle" excellent! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
caissa Posted August 21, 2019 Author Share #383 Posted August 21, 2019 (edited) I don’t understand this referral to other brands. It is far off. Still I believe Leica produced these Apo lenses (35 and 50) because of a well thought out marketing strategy. But not for producing the best possible product for practical photography. I think this not hard to grasp. But obviously some do not want to use their heads to think about this, but rather invent some obscure ideas that they put into my mouth to make what I write look ridiculous. A quite poor discussion experience. (No, not Jono. He is fair and not inventing things that I never wrote. Thanks for that.) Summary: I fully understand that Leica follows a clever marketing strategy. So they constructed these lenses as planned from the beginning of the primes series. (Do I really have to add again that I am happy with the 75 and 90mm lenses of this series.) I think at the same time that for practical photography this not the best strategy. Nothing else, so no need to invent anything I did not write. And I do not want to achieve anything, or convince anyone. (And so I do not think that I would like to get “unsharp” lenses, or anything similarly weird. I just want to mention that optimizing IQ from 99% to 99.9% perfection and at the same time neglecting other important features of a lens (size, weight, AF speed, prize) is just one strategy of many. But not necessarily the best overall.) It is an achievement to improve the extraordinary IQ of the M50 Apo even more. But for my “daily photography” this is an achievement that leads to nothing. A lens with faster AF or smaller size (better handling) or a much smaller price would have made a difference. Edited August 21, 2019 by caissa Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaemono Posted August 21, 2019 Share #384 Posted August 21, 2019 vor 10 Minuten schrieb caissa: But obviously some...invent some obscure ideas that they put into my mouth to make what I write look ridiculous. A quite poor discussion experience. (No, not Jono. He is fair and not inventing things that I never wrote. Thanks for that.) Jono is more subtle in this regard, and as such very effective in deflating his opponents’ arguments and making what they write look even more ridiculous. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
caissa Posted August 21, 2019 Author Share #385 Posted August 21, 2019 (edited) Some go into discussions to come out as winner..... Some simply because they want to exchange ideas. It should be quite clear what the motivations of some members are. Edited August 21, 2019 by caissa Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donzo98 Posted August 21, 2019 Share #386 Posted August 21, 2019 I don’t understand this referral to other brands. It is far off. Still I believe Leica produced these Apo lenses (35 and 50) because of a well thought out marketing strategy. But not for producing the best possible product for practical photography. I think this not hard to grasp. But obviously some do not want to use their heads to think about this, but rather invent some obscure ideas that they put into my mouth to make what I write look ridiculous. A quite poor discussion experience. (No, not Jono. He is fair and not inventing things that I never wrote. Thanks for that.) Summary: I fully understand that Leica follows a clever marketing strategy. So they constructed these lenses as planned from the beginning of the primes series. (Do I really have to add again that I am happy with the 75 and 90mm lenses of this series.) I think at the same time that for practical photography this not the best strategy. Nothing else, so no need to invent anything I did not write. And I do not want to achieve anything, or convince anyone. (And so I do not think that I would like to get “unsharp” lenses, or anything similarly weird. I just want to mention that optimizing IQ from 99% to 99.9% perfection and at the same time neglecting other important features of a lens (size, weight, AF speed, prize) is just one strategy of many. But not necessarily the best overall.) It is an achievement to improve the extraordinary IQ of the M50 Apo even more. But for my “daily photography” this is an achievement that leads to nothing. A lens with faster AF or smaller size (better handling) or a much smaller price would have made a difference. I agree with you, but that's what luxury brands are. Crazy expensive for a small or perceived gain in performance. Look at cars, boats, audio equipment.... I am happy to have my SL glass... it is incredible. I didn't pay full retail for most of it, but still crazy prices. I don't think I will be paying for an SL2 now that I have an S1R... for far less money. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaemono Posted August 21, 2019 Share #387 Posted August 21, 2019 Advertisement (gone after registration) vor 5 Minuten schrieb Donzo98: I don't think I will be paying for an SL2 now that I have an S1R... for far less money. I think you will change your mind when you see it. 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donzo98 Posted August 21, 2019 Share #388 Posted August 21, 2019 3 minutes ago, Chaemono said: I think you will change your mind when you see it. LOL.. anything is possible Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tom0511 Posted August 21, 2019 Share #389 Posted August 21, 2019 (edited) just deleted this post because I see no value for any of us in arguing back and forth. Edited August 21, 2019 by tom0511 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
caissa Posted August 21, 2019 Author Share #390 Posted August 21, 2019 AF speed with adapted lenses. (Canon tele) https://shivverma.com/blog-2/. Good enough ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ropo54 Posted August 22, 2019 Share #391 Posted August 22, 2019 5 hours ago, Donzo98 said: LOL.. anything is possible I think Chaemono is correct! Lol! Rob 5 hours ago, Chaemono said: I think you will change your mind when you see it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
caissa Posted August 22, 2019 Author Share #392 Posted August 22, 2019 Not sure people will order the SL2 right when it gets available. The L-system has matured a lot, and also people to some degree. I am sure that the next better camera will arrive sooner or later. No need to jump right unto the next offer. I have lenses and equipment for most circumstances and the urge to get the newest stuff has cooled down remarkably. The alliance makes sure that progress continues, even if one member fails. Leica have maybe already waited too long to bring the SL2. And if they are flexible enough is another question (regarding LENR, or IBIS, or high res mode, or USB power supply, and long time power). The question is also when comes the next camera from Panasonic or the Foveon Sigma camera ... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donzo98 Posted August 22, 2019 Share #393 Posted August 22, 2019 (edited) 41 minutes ago, ropo54 said: I think Chaemono is correct! Lol! Rob Hey Rob... hope all is well. You sell the S stuff yet?? What bodies are you using now?? Super happy with my Q2 and S1R... Edited August 22, 2019 by Donzo98 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ropo54 Posted August 22, 2019 Share #394 Posted August 22, 2019 3 minutes ago, Donzo98 said: Hey... hope all is well. You sell the S stuff yet?? What bodies are you using now?? Super happy with my Q2 and S1R... Don: Nope . . . decided to stick with the S and added a S100 f2. (The S market is so very quiet at the moment in anticipation of the S3). I'm sticking with the SL and will likely get the SL2 once the initial furor subsides. For light weight, I like using the M lenses on the SL, and with 47mp on the SL2 will also incorporate the TL lenses. Enjoying all of the options at the moment. Rob 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaemono Posted August 22, 2019 Share #395 Posted August 22, 2019 vor 5 Stunden schrieb caissa: The question is also when comes the next camera from Panasonic or the Foveon Sigma camera ... +1. And when the next S1R is about to come, the question will be when the SL3 will come. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tom0511 Posted August 22, 2019 Share #396 Posted August 22, 2019 If I may come back to the original question - S1 as backup for SL ... I own both the SL and S1R...the last weeks I have only used the S1r (new toy effect)... and there are certainly some things I prefer over the SL (for example how face detection AF works, IS, viewfinder) but at the same time I start missing the simplicity of the SL, and sometimes I do feel there might be a slight difference in colors... So I am interested in opinions of others who have used both for some time side by side (or one after the other)... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonoslack Posted August 22, 2019 Share #397 Posted August 22, 2019 38 minutes ago, tom0511 said: If I may come back to the original question - S1 as backup for SL ... I own both the SL and S1R...the last weeks I have only used the S1r (new toy effect)... and there are certainly some things I prefer over the SL (for example how face detection AF works, IS, viewfinder) but at the same time I start missing the simplicity of the SL, and sometimes I do feel there might be a slight difference in colors... So I am interested in opinions of others who have used both for some time side by side (or one after the other)... Hi There Tom Well, I’ve spent a long time with both (My Panasonic S1 went back to Panasonic today - but I’m keeping the 70=200 for a while). Like you I was using the S1 more - partly of course to write the article. I liked lots of things about it (Ibis and face detect like you primarily). But I don’t think I’d want one as a backup for an SL - mainly because it works so very differently, so you really have to change gear mentally to swap. The colours are a bit different, but I quite liked the Panasonic colours anyway. To be honest, it’s been a relief going back to the SL, and I’m looking forwards to the SL2 All the best 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
caissa Posted August 22, 2019 Author Share #398 Posted August 22, 2019 (edited) More details about the Panasonic roadmap. https://www.panasonicff.com/updated-panasonic-l-mount-lens-roadmap-24-70mm-f-2-8-in-autumn-70-200mm-f-2-8-16-35mm-f-4-in-winter/ Sigma also brings more lenses than first expected. The three that are already available (2.8/45, 14-24, 1.2/35) plus the 11 primes that were on the first list plus a few DC (aps-c) lenses. https://www.panasonicff.com/updated-sigma-l-mount-lens-roadmap-through-2020-july-2019/ Sigma will bring the first macro lens for L (with 70mm focal length in early 2020), later Panasonic in 2020 (focal length not announced yet), and finally maybe Leica (2021 or later). And it looks as if the smaller and cheaper 1.4/35 and 1.4/50 will come next in September. (Was unsure after the 2.8/45 and 1.2/35 if they come regardless.) Edited August 22, 2019 by caissa Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
caissa Posted August 23, 2019 Author Share #399 Posted August 23, 2019 (edited) A photo of the 11 L-mount Sigma primes. https://www.digitalcameraworld.com/news/sigmas-11-l-mount-art-lenses-seen-in-london-ahead-of-september-launch Edited August 23, 2019 by caissa Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
caissa Posted August 24, 2019 Author Share #400 Posted August 24, 2019 (edited) Panasonic seems to have very strange ideas about international prices. At bhphoto (NY) the S1R is sold for 3000 $, a reduction of 700$ . In Switzerland the official price is 4500 SFr. with a 150 SFr bonus. This is almost 45% more expensive ... Crazy !! Edited August 24, 2019 by caissa Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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