When will S3 be available? {merged}

[Jan1985]

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Maybe the Leica engineers and CEO have taken a look on systems like the new GFX while they were working on the new S3... It maybe that this led to new descisions during the development and the new features maybe much bigger in the end than it was planned last year. I hope its a good sign. But the S007 does a great job.

[Stuart Richardson]

I think that is certainly the most charitable reading of all this...they have seen that what they might introduce would be an uphill battle. My hope would be that they might have decided that it would be a better idea to update to a Maestro 3 processor in order to position it better in the market as a faster, more video capable option. Because otherwise it is kind of hard to believe how it could be taking this long...now scheduled for 18 months after announcement, and surely they were working on it for a year or two before that, while the majority of the camera is an S007. As was said above, this is not really reinventing the wheel...it is swapping out a sensor in a completely mature system. Of course, I am not a camera/sensor engineer, so perhaps there is something I am missing, but it certainly does not seem like it would be such a Herculean effort to update the camera.

Edited October 21, 2019 by Stuart Richardson

[SaW]

Or simply the S3 from Leica is the MacPro of Apple. Financial interests are shifting towards other products/branches. Internal resources are re-assigned to other projects and the Leica Pro Product Mgmt is left with reduced teams having almost fully planned workload on other tasks and low prio for the S. In such situation when a technical issue arise then the production delay gets easily way longer.

When technical issues will finally be solved they will then put it on the market without being too interested in the other products (since they're the only ones to make real cameras for photographers) and knowing that their customers are whether wealthy enough to afford buying a new camera for 24k or more than happy to trade their current S with 10k cash extra. No hidden surprise, no secret functionality, just an update with the specs we all already know everything about.

Low investment cost, low financial risk making an acceptable investment return. Then in 5 years they'll announce the end of the medium format, stopping the production of the S dinosaurs stating that the full frame sensors are now technologically advanced enough that Medium format quality has been reached with their SL3.

Maybe a worst case scenario, but this is just to compensate the charitable view of other members and make this forum correctly balanced again 🙂

Edited October 21, 2019 by SaW

[setuporg]

The optics of MF is clearly what makes it a beautiful instrument of art.  The large lenses soaking the light are here to stay across GFX, XCD, and hopefully S too.  The OVF is really a singular point that will always have its fans, including me and so many others here.  In fact the OVF is a key Leica point, the Q and the SL seem like concessions to the times while true excitement is centered around the M.  Just check the post count on these forums.

What are the alternatives for OVF in medium format?  Phase One and Hasselblad HC?

Edited October 21, 2019 by setuporg

[ZHNL]

Really doesn't matter to me. I can wait longer if it turns out they want improve a few thing upon original announcement. (I hope it is not the same camera but delayed one year for no reason). 

I don't see there is a better system out there for me now or in foreseeable future. No lenses have rendering better than a set of S. and No EVF camera have even close to what I see through S OVF, not to mention those delay and blank out. (MF is even worse than FF which is still not there) For someones shooting manual focus 90% of time, there is simple no better system for me. You just have to use a lot gears to realize how special S glasses are. If you just want count pixel or can't tolerate size, I agree there are better systems out there even in FF format. 

Leica can take as much time as they want because there is simply no competitors out there if you really value and understand its merits IMHO.  

[setuporg]

I agree, @ZHNL, the only question is will they service the bodies and make new ones.  I was not a Leica users when they discontinued the R, but the excellent lenses still found around, and the poignantly named @LeicaR10 user 🙂, are a reminder of what might happen, that we don't want to happen.  Time to buy another 007 body?

Edited October 21, 2019 by setuporg

[Stuart Richardson]

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What happened with the R is that the lens values plummeted precipitously for around five or six years...they only really recovered a bit once mirrorless cameras really started taking over and DSLR video made those lenses valuable again. Also, R lenses were produced in greater quantities for longer time, and are "dead" lenses with no important electronics and manual irises. I had a DMR and a full R kit at the time, and the discontinuation was a big disappointment and most people who did not have the very latest lenses tended to get a very low value for their lenses. With the S, the situation is likely to be much worse, as there is only one other system which lenses work on (the L mount), and even then they only AF on Leica's own bodies. They are heavier, slower and optically similar/inferior to the native prime lenses for the SL system.  On the one hand, it is hard to imagine that the values could plunge much more than they already have, but it certainly does not look like a rosy future for the S lenses if Leica stops making bodies for the S mount...they really did not fix the R and DMR much longer after the system died, and similarly, I doubt that we will be able to repair the S2 and S006 for all that much longer, given the older sensor it came with. If Leica does not update the body, I think it might behoove one to look at the sunken cost fallacy...I know I already got burned by it. I waited to sell my S2 because I figured maybe I could use it as a backup, but now it is worth so little that I could most likely not even trade it for an M9. Had I sold it right away, I would have gotten six thousand dollars or so of the initial 22. I thought that was bad...

[ZHNL]

2 hours ago, setuporg said:

I agree, @ZHNL, the only question is will they service the bodies and make new ones.  I was not a Leica users when they discontinued the R, but the excellent lenses still found around, and the poignantly named @LeicaR10 user 🙂, are a reminder of what might happen, that we don't want to happen.  Time to buy another 007 body?

I really don't think they will or should drop S. Actually, I think only S and M are potentially true money makers for Leica if you ask me: because they both niche (compare to main stream) and special enough without much competition. (one is rangefinder, the other is fast OVF MF camera) They don't need fight furiously with Canon R, Nikon Z and Sony A not to mention Fuji, Panasonic etc....Modern lenses designed are just getting better and better to the point that they are all about same for price and weight, it is especially hard to compete in AF technology with big company. Even Canon and Nikon are struggling right now.  

The Leica S is in current status is not because Leica has inferior platform or technology but because they were not live up to the high standard the system promised for and they shift R&D dynamic to L and hope to gain broader market share. As a small company, they simply don't have enough resource to develop further on an awesome platform. There were so many reliability problems associate with the systems and they didn't do much with the system for past few years: No communication with customers, No future plan, No new lens, no update on resolution, No real update on technology no firmware to further improve the operation (where is the easy EC in Aperture mode, the top dial is useless there) etc...

I hope they see that this is a potential platform to succeed that they don't need update constantly to be competitive because there is no much competition here. 

Edited October 21, 2019 by ZHNL

[ZHNL]

1 hour ago, Stuart Richardson said:

What happened with the R is that the lens values plummeted precipitously for around five or six years...they only really recovered a bit once mirrorless cameras really started taking over and DSLR video made those lenses valuable again. Also, R lenses were produced in greater quantities for longer time, and are "dead" lenses with no important electronics and manual irises. I had a DMR and a full R kit at the time, and the discontinuation was a big disappointment and most people who did not have the very latest lenses tended to get a very low value for their lenses. With the S, the situation is likely to be much worse, as there is only one other system which lenses work on (the L mount), and even then they only AF on Leica's own bodies. They are heavier, slower and optically similar/inferior to the native prime lenses for the SL system.  On the one hand, it is hard to imagine that the values could plunge much more than they already have, but it certainly does not look like a rosy future for the S lenses if Leica stops making bodies for the S mount...they really did not fix the R and DMR much longer after the system died, and similarly, I doubt that we will be able to repair the S2 and S006 for all that much longer, given the older sensor it came with. If Leica does not update the body, I think it might behoove one to look at the sunken cost fallacy...I know I already got burned by it. I waited to sell my S2 because I figured maybe I could use it as a backup, but now it is worth so little that I could most likely not even trade it for an M9. Had I sold it right away, I would have gotten six thousand dollars or so of the initial 22. I thought that was bad...

To be fair to S, the digital cameras are always depreciate fast.  I haven't track Hasselblad or phase, I don't they can keep their value much for 10 years old back or cameras. Canikon or Sony are also quite bad for 2nd hand value.  

I used S glass on panasonic S1, I actually really love them.  Because big image coverage, there are no funky corner and bokeh ball looks very circular:) Rendering is very relaxed. We don't see this kind of rendering from native lenses if we know what to look for. 

I have to agree the lens are big and heavy for the speed. With high resolution mode, it offers a very nice 2nd back up system for S that offer more reach at tele-end without break bank for another S body.       

Edited October 21, 2019 by ZHNL

[erlingmm]

Sorry, I gave up, bought a Phase One XF with IQ4 150, some trade-ins gave decent price. Terrific set, slow like the S, 1 focus point like the S, but fantastic image quality, frame averaging, focus stacking, Profoto support +++

Had 20k in the bank for 2 years waiting for the S3, I am an old man, can’t wait forever.

Kept the S007, not worth much in the used market anyway, glad the S is continued, will keep it as my MF all-weather walk around, still love it. might consider S3 in 2020 😉

 

PS: ..and Capture1 12 is fantastic, wish Leica could get an agreement with them to support the S.

Edited October 21, 2019 by erlingmm

[setuporg]

2 minutes ago, erlingmm said:

... Had 20k in the bank for 2 years waiting for the S3, I am an old man, can’t wait forever.

Kept the S007, not worth much in the used market anyway, glad the S is continued, will keep it as my MF all-weather walk around, still love it. might consider S3 in 2020 😉

If indeed they release S3 on 20 March 2020, and you bring the 20K for it, that will be a singular occasion!:)

[ZHNL]

4 minutes ago, erlingmm said:

Sorry, I gave up, bought a Phase One XF with IQ4 150, some trade-ins gave decent price. Terrific set, slow like the S, 1 focus point like the S, but fantastic image quality, frame averaging, focus stacking +++

Had 20k in the bank for 2 years waiting for the S3, I am an old man, can’t wait forever.

Kept the S007, not worth much in the used market anyway, glad the S is continued, will keep it as my MF all-weather walk around, still love it. might consider S3 in 2020 😉

Wish I had that kind of money.......

.....

....

so that I can keep the S and put rest to travel around world LOL

congratulation!

[LeicaR10]

Setuporg,  I firmly believe the S system is not dead, quite the opposite IMO.  Many photographers IMO, fail to realize what and who the S was designed and fielded for in terms of market niche.  The S camera is designed for professional fashion, studio and advertising photographers.  Photographers who produce photographs for clients that pay handsomely for their works.  The offshoot market is landscape photographers.  The camera was never intended to compete with Canon, Nikon, Sony, etc..  It is a small niche camera that was designed from the ground up for medium format photography with state of the art S lenses.  It is NOT designed as a prosumer camera intended for a mass market.  People also seem to forget, many high end professional photographers today, either rent or lease the S camera and write it off on their taxes.  Just like they do with other high end camera systems like Hasselblad and PhaseOne.  Why, it is a business tax write off and because digital cameras depreciate fast, no matter the brand.  It always disturbs me too, is how photographers want to compare the MPs and files of prosumer cameras against the S system.  It is like apples and oranges.  The sensors and lenses are totally different.  The S lenses have no peer and can resolve far beyond anything current or future sensors wise.  Peter Karbe is a genius with optical engineering and designed the S lenses to optically out perform anything now or in the future.  Again, photographers have fallen prey to camera marketing and biased reviews to make them think more MPs will "make" their photographs.  They are deceiving and deluding themselves.  What is key in excellent photography is CONTENT of the photograph, not the number of MPs.  Photographers also forget that cameras or lenses are like automobiles, they depreciate.  Cameras and lenses depreciate immediately as soon as you unbox the camera/lens and walk out the store.  As I have written before on this forum, photographers would be a lot happier with their photography be it a hobby, semi- or professional, if they concentrated on CREATING excellent photographs that make one; Stop, Look, Think and Feel something about that moment in time.  (Feeling IMO is the hardest aspect to convey in a photograph).  But if the photographer can create a photograph that meets the aforementioned criteria, the result will be an Excellent Photograph vs a mere photo.  Then ponder this thought...you can do this with ANY camera.  So, there will be an S camera, it has some technical issues that are being resolved according to my sources.  Yet, do not expect a Fuji, Hasselblad price tag...isn't going to happen.  The S2, 006 and 007 cameras and S lenses are excellent buys right now...just remember, cameras and lenses, like automobiles ARE NOT an investment....quite the opposite.  Last, I encourage photographers to simply enjoy their current photographic tools and go create the excellent photographs and stop waiting for the next model Ferrari.  r/ Mark

Edited October 22, 2019 by LeicaR10

[setuporg]

Thank you Mark, beatifully said!

[ZHNL]

1 hour ago, LeicaR10 said:

Setuporg,  I firmly believe the S system is not dead, quite the opposite IMO.  Many photographers IMO, fail to realize what and who the S was designed and fielded for in terms of market niche.  The S camera is designed for professional fashion, studio and advertising photographers.  Photographers who produce photographs for clients that pay handsomely for their works.  The offshoot market is landscape photographers.  The camera was never intended to compete with Canon, Nikon, Sony, etc..  It is a small niche camera that was designed from the ground up for medium format photography with state of the art S lenses.  It is NOT designed as a prosumer camera intended for a mass market.  People also seem to forget, many high end professional photographers today, either rent or lease the S camera and write it off on their taxes.  Just like they do with other high end camera systems like Hasselblad and PhaseOne.  Why, it is a business tax write off and because digital cameras depreciate fast, no matter the brand.  It always disturbs me too, is how photographers want to compare the MPs and files of prosumer cameras against the S system.  It is like apples and oranges.  The sensors and lenses are totally different.  The S lenses have no peer and can resolve far beyond anything current or future sensors wise.  Peter Karbe is a genius with optical engineering and designed the S lenses to optically out perform anything now or in the future.  Again, photographers have fallen prey to camera marketing and biased reviews to make them think more MPs will "make" their photographs.  They are deceiving and deluding themselves.  What is key in excellent photography is CONTENT of the photograph, not the number of MPs.  Photographers also forget that cameras or lenses are like automobiles, they depreciate.  Cameras and lenses depreciate immediately as soon as you unbox the camera/lens and walk out the store.  As I have written before on this forum, photographers would be a lot happier with their photography be it a hobby, semi- or professional, if they concentrated on CREATING excellent photographs that make one; Stop, Look, Think and Feel something about that moment in time.  (Feeling IMO is the hardest aspect to convey in a photograph).  But if the photographer can create a photograph that meets the aforementioned criteria, the result will be an Excellent Photograph vs a mere photo.  Then ponder this thought...you can do this with ANY camera.  So, there will be an S camera, it has some technical issues that are being resolved according to my sources.  Yet, do not expect a Fuji, Hasselblad price tag...isn't going to happen.  The S2, 006 and 007 cameras and S lenses are excellent buys right now...just remember, cameras and lenses, like automobiles ARE NOT an investment....quite the opposite.  Last, I encourage photographers to simply enjoy their current photographic tools and go create the excellent photographs and stop waiting for the next model Ferrari.  r/ Mark

I am not target customers as you listed but just a serious hobbyist.  It doesn’t prevent me enjoy using S and appreciate its design. 
 

One of best cameras ever created IMHO. 

[LeicaR10]

ZHNL,  Exactly.  Enjoy creating fine photographs with a most excellent camera.  r/ Mark

[LeicaS2]

Mark,

Correct indeed.

I doubt fashion photographers post here. I have no idea if they want an EVF, as they are outputting to monitors for clients.

I suspect some will always enjoy the coming uniqueness of OVF. I do.

 

 

 

[LeicaR10]

LeicaS2,  You are correct about fashion photographers posting here.  The few that I know professionally simply don't have time for posting.  They work very hard and most are constantly moving from one job to the next.   I once asked them about the EVF idea for the S and they told me for their work they like the OVF better.  I think this is one reason why Leica stays with the OVF at least for now.  Leica really does reach out to the fashion and other professional photographers and listens to what they have to say to improve their products.  For me, I really like the OVF with the S cameras and my business is geared for corporate and private collectors of landscape photography.  So I say, watch the S space for more things to come from Leica.  r/ Mark

[Jeff S]

The latest rumors suggest a new Maestro III processor in the SL2.  I wonder if a similar update to the S3 (as opposed to last year’s report indicating the same Maestro II) has any bearing on the delay.

Jeff

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[mmx_2]

3 hours ago, Jeff S said:

The latest rumors suggest a new Maestro III processor in the SL2.  I wonder if a similar update to the S3 (as opposed to last year’s report indicating the same Maestro II) has any bearing on the delay.

Jeff

Exactly what I thought! Might also be the very good reason for the delay.