Coming back to Leica - Much needed advise please

[Flyer]

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I have been a photographer for over 40 years and like many have seen the changes in technology from film to digital etc. I have owned many cameras both DSLR and mirrorless, but only the Fujifilm Xpro2 gave me that fulfilment, and when I say fulfilment it was the only camera that felt like a tool to create images. All other cameras just felt like a piece of electronics and for me are designed to capture the moment instantaneously and without much creativity and engagement from the photographer.  I had a brief spell 2 years ago with the Leica SL with M lenses and felt that although a very nice camera, it was very heavy and bulky, especially with the 24-90.

So here I am in early 2019, retired at the age of 58 and now have the time to be more considered about my hobby, hence the interest again in Leica.

Now I have a limited budget and will still retain my Nikon D850 and long lens for nature and wildlife.

The Leica (whichever model) will be pure indulgence and only used for travel/memories, so I will only be using two of the cheaper Leica lenses - a 50mm and a 28mm.

I have a few question that I am hoping the experienced Leica people will be able to assist me with.

 

1.  I guess a Q would meet my needs but I have a feeling I would sell it after a few months as I wouldn't want to be restricted by a fixed lens. But I think the transition from Mirrorless/DSLR's may be easier with a Q than a rangefinder?

2. The difference in the UK between an M10 and M240 isn't significant but I never use video,  would you buy the M240 and allow more funds for better lenses, or the M10 with cheaper lenses.

3. How difficult is it to achieve accurate focus on a rangefinder, having never used one is their a steep learning curve?

4. My only trepidation is the move to OVF with manual focus, although I have a feeling I will enjoy the process how long do you feel it would be before I start to be able to zone focus and enjoy the process?

 

I am excited about having a Leica but unsure about the jump from - Image stabilised and highly accurate auto focus etc etc.

 

Many Thanks In Advance

 

Flyer

 

  

 

[pixelman]

1) A Q is s very easy and pleasant camera to own and use.  It is a very different UI than an M or a Nikon 850. You need to want to manually focus to be happy with an M.  There is room (maybe budget?) in your life for a Q an M and a DSLR or mirrorless. I wouldn’t worry about the transition to M man focusing  that is something you should decide to do or not .  One approach might be get an M with a 60 and a Q and see what you think   

2) if you are buying into the M for the first time I’d go for an M10-P

3) there is a learning curve, but some find manual focusing very enjoyable.  You need to understand this for you.  Perhaps rent an M for a few days. 

4) if you know how to zone focus you should be comfortable right away.  

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[TomB_tx]

While I find the M rangefinder and VF much easier than manual focus on a dSLR (with normal to wide lenses), I've been using them since the 1960s, so I don't really recall the learning curve! 

When I retired 10 years ago I used a big part of my retirement bonus to get an M9, as it was the only digital that let me work just like with my film cameras. (I never cared for autofocus, etc.) Last year I blew my budget to get the M10 after they became more available in stock, and I've not regretted it. The viewfinder is clearly improved, and the high ISO capability lets me use my (cheaper) slower lenses. In fact, even though I have Summilux and other fast lenses, I prefer to use the 35 & 50 Summarit 2.5 lenses on the M10 for their size and handling. 

The M10 is better than the older models with older and non-Leica wide angle lenses, as it is less sensitive to the angle of light rays reaching the sensor. I use a cheap Voigtlander 21mm f4 for an ultrawide, and find it very acceptable. 

If the Summarit lenses, stretch your budget to much, the Zeiss Planar 50 works very well on the M10, and both Zeiss and Voigtlander have cheaper wide angles that give good results also.

I also added the 020 "Visoflex" for long lens EVF focusing, which make the M10 more flexible. (This is better than the EVF offered for the 240 & etc.)

I like the M10 so much I'm not at all tempted by the newer variants with quieter shutters and different features. 

[jaapv]

Quote

 

Question: I come from an autofocus camera background. What is the best way to get good focus on the M9?

 

The M9 works the same way as any rangefinder camera, the central patch in the viewfinder is your focusing tool.

It is important to look through the viewfinder in the optical axis. Looking into the camera skewed will result in inaccurate focus.

 

The first thing to do is to ascertain that you can see the rangefinder patch properly. A correct match between the rangefinder and your eye is even more important than it is using an SLR.

Leica sells corrective diopter lenses. Determining which one you need - if any- can be done by going to your optician and holding his try-out lenses between your eye and the viewfinder. The one that allows you to see the rangefinder patch and framelines sharply is the correct one. Order the nearest value from Leica. In a pinch you can use over-the-counter reading glasses for this test. If your eyes need special corrections, you can use your spectacles, provided you can see clearly at 2 metres distance ( the virtual distance of the rangefinder patch). Note that the background will be at background distance,so your eye should ideally be able to accomodate over the distance differential. However, there is some tolerance here.

 

For special cases there are viewfinder magnifiers. They can help, especially with longer and fast lenses and they can give confidence, but they can also be not very useful; they cannot correct errors in the focusing mechanism or your eye, in fact they magnify them.

Also, one loses contrast and brightness.

Leica offers a 1.25x one and a 1.4x. These need diopter correction like the camera, but often of a different value than the camera viewfinder.

 

There are also third-party magnifiers, sold by Japan Exposures, that include a variable diopter correction. 1.15x and 1.35x. For patent reasons they cannot be sold in the USA and Germany for use on a Leica camera, but they can be purchased for use on for instance a rifle scope.

Basically, for an experienced user, magnifiers are not needed and will only lower contrast and brightness, but many users do like and use them.

 

Once the viewfinder is corrected optimally, there are three methods of focusing, in ascending order of difficulty aka training.

 

1. The broken line method. Look for a vertical line in the image and bring it together in the rangefinder patch to be continuous.

 

2. The coincidence method. Look for a pattern in the image and bring it together to coincide. This may lead to errors with repeating patterns.

 

3. The contrast method. Once you have focus by method 1. or 2. a small adjustment will cause the rangefinder patch to "jump" into optimum contrast. At that point you have the most precise focussing adjustment.

 

Side remarks:

 

If you try focusing on a subject emitting polarized light like a reflection it may happen that the polarizing effect of the prism system in the rangefinder will blot out the contrast in the rangefinder patch, making focusing difficult. In that case rotate the camera 90 degrees to focus.

Forget about zone focusing - it is a crutch in case you are unable to focus properly.

[a.noctilux]

Flyer,

if you have not done yet, as you never used RF/Leica OVF , first thing is to allow you some time to use one Leica M, renting or borrowing the M combo of your planning "kit".

Maybe RF manual focus is not your cup of tea.

 

In my experience, focussing with RF is much easier than other means when I use 28mm or 35/50mm lens.

As first M, type 240 family can be very good way to begin digital M.

M262 may even be the "right choice", if I had to begin with M.

Coupled with Summarit-M 50mm and Elmarit-M 2.8/28mm asph. , M262 can be this "ideal mini kit", light and not so expensive for Leica ☺️.

I'm lucky to use some digital M, in final results, this combo that I use regularly lets nothing to be desired in place of M10 and much more expensive lenses.

[Dirk Mandeville]

1.  For those that enjoy varying the look and feel of their photos through the use of various lenses and focal lengths, the Q is a bit of a nonstarter as an only camera. It is a fantastic camera, but the limitation of the fixed lens is a a valid consideration. I plan to buy one as a second camera to my M10, but I don’t think I would buy one as my only Leica camera. 

2.  I owned the M9, but skipped the M240 for several reasons. I bought the M10 and now rarely use the M9. I plan to sell the M9 and my 28mm elmarit to finance the purchase of a Q-P or, depending on my patience, a Q2. Between the M240 and the M10, I believe the M10 is the obvious choice. Not even close in my mind. Personally, I would go for quality in my lens purchases. Go slow, be patient, and choose quality lenses (whether Leica, Zeiss or Cv) that suit your shooting needs and your budget. Don’t disregard vintage lenses. They tend to be less expensive, perfectly usable, and can add unique looks over the modern equivalents. 

3.  There is a learning curve with rangefinder focusing and it may take a little while and quite a few missed shots until you are comfortable with it. Older eyes, dim light, and longer or faster lenses shot wide open all make it even more difficult to nail focus. But when you do, the results are worth the effort. Over time, you will adapt and become comfortable with it and be able to focus quickly and accurately. If you can’t manage that for whatever reason, the M10 has the option of the visoflex evf, which makes focusing in difficult circumstances infinitely easier. 

4.  With a wider angle lens stopped down, and an understanding of subject distance and depth of field considerations, zone focusing is pretty easy to do. You will get the hang of that quickly. The harder part with Leica M’s is shooting a 50 1.4 wide open and nailing focus on the eyes of a subject six feet away in difficult lighting. This is where the evf has distinct advantages over the rangefinder. The main thing is to accept the learning curve and the fact that you will miss a lot of shots due to poor focus. I missed a few shots early on for not taking the lens cap off. Looking through the viewfinder and focusing on your subject, you have no idea that the lens is still covered if you forgot to take off the lens cap. 😂  Just chalk these sorts of things to rookie mistakes to be learned from and you will improve quickly. 

[jaapv]

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[Ashkanani1985]

2 hours ago, Flyer said:

I have been a photographer for over 40 years and like many have seen the changes in technology from film to digital etc. I have owned many cameras both DSLR and mirrorless, but only the Fujifilm Xpro2 gave me that fulfilment, and when I say fulfilment it was the only camera that felt like a tool to create images. All other cameras just felt like a piece of electronics and for me are designed to capture the moment instantaneously and without much creativity and engagement from the photographer.  I had a brief spell 2 years ago with the Leica SL with M lenses and felt that although a very nice camera, it was very heavy and bulky, especially with the 24-90.

So here I am in early 2019, retired at the age of 58 and now have the time to be more considered about my hobby, hence the interest again in Leica.

Now I have a limited budget and will still retain my Nikon D850 and long lens for nature and wildlife.

The Leica (whichever model) will be pure indulgence and only used for travel/memories, so I will only be using two of the cheaper Leica lenses - a 50mm and a 28mm.

I have a few question that I am hoping the experienced Leica people will be able to assist me with.

 

1.  I guess a Q would meet my needs but I have a feeling I would sell it after a few months as I wouldn't want to be restricted by a fixed lens. But I think the transition from Mirrorless/DSLR's may be easier with a Q than a rangefinder?

2. The difference in the UK between an M10 and M240 isn't significant but I never use video,  would you buy the M240 and allow more funds for better lenses, or the M10 with cheaper lenses.

3. How difficult is it to achieve accurate focus on a rangefinder, having never used one is their a steep learning curve?

4. My only trepidation is the move to OVF with manual focus, although I have a feeling I will enjoy the process how long do you feel it would be before I start to be able to zone focus and enjoy the process?

 

I am excited about having a Leica but unsure about the jump from - Image stabilised and highly accurate auto focus etc etc.

 

Many Thanks In Advance

 

Flyer

 

  

 

I was in your position 2 years ago when I switched completely from big lenses and DSLR to just a Leica with two lenses and I can tell you this as long as wildlife is out of the equation than nothing beat the pleasure and engagement of shooting with M camera. First before using M I shoot with Q for 6 month and its good camera but it doesn't gives you the engagement and fun of shooting with M, you can call it as Fuji or Sony experience but with color profile of Leica, and the IQ of Q is not up there with SL, M10 or M240.

which M camera ? I tried both M240 and M10, the M10 for some reason is more engaging experience and better IQ so if you buying today I would say go with M10.

 

[Flyer]

2 hours ago, pixelman said:

1) A Q is s very easy and pleasant camera to own and use.  It is a very different UI than an M or a Nikon 850. You need to want to manually focus to be happy with an M.  There is room (maybe budget?) in your life for a Q an M and a DSLR or mirrorless. I wouldn’t worry about the transition to M man focusing  that is something you should decide to do or not .  One approach might be get an M with a 60 and a Q and see what you think   

2) if you are buying into the M for the first time I’d go for an M10-P

3) there is a learning curve, but some find manual focusing very enjoyable.  You need to understand this for you.  Perhaps rent an M for a few days. 

4) if you know how to zone focus you should be comfortable right away.  

Thanks for the advise, and will consider the M10-P if my wife gives me the nod 

 

[FrozenInTime]

Definitely go for the M10 or M10-P superb camera, which captures the feel of the M film camera. The M.240 reminds me of the Austin Allegro Vanden Plas.

Manual RF focus soon becomes second nature and hitting focus with a 50/1.4 is a lot easier than MF on an SLR.

The EVF on the M10 is useful for precise framing and  very wide lenses, but slows down camera handling rather too much for everyday use. If you feel you will rely on the EVF, the SL or CL may be better choice.

Beyond small prints , in these days of pixel peeping, zone focus really falls short - there is only one sharp plane and increasing blur.

[Flyer]

3 hours ago, TomB_tx said:

While I find the M rangefinder and VF much easier than manual focus on a dSLR (with normal to wide lenses), I've been using them since the 1960s, so I don't really recall the learning curve! 

When I retired 10 years ago I used a big part of my retirement bonus to get an M9, as it was the only digital that let me work just like with my film cameras. (I never cared for autofocus, etc.) Last year I blew my budget to get the M10 after they became more available in stock, and I've not regretted it. The viewfinder is clearly improved, and the high ISO capability lets me use my (cheaper) slower lenses. In fact, even though I have Summilux and other fast lenses, I prefer to use the 35 & 50 Summarit 2.5 lenses on the M10 for their size and handling. 

The M10 is better than the older models with older and non-Leica wide angle lenses, as it is less sensitive to the angle of light rays reaching the sensor. I use a cheap Voigtlander 21mm f4 for an ultrawide, and find it very acceptable. 

If the Summarit lenses, stretch your budget to much, the Zeiss Planar 50 works very well on the M10, and both Zeiss and Voigtlander have cheaper wide angles that give good results also.

I also added the 020 "Visoflex" for long lens EVF focusing, which make the M10 more flexible. (This is better than the EVF offered for the 240 & etc.)

I like the M10 so much I'm not at all tempted by the newer variants with quieter shutters and different features. 

Thank you for the help. Didn't think about the Visflex as a back up. 

[Flyer]

40 minutes ago, Ashkanani1985 said:

I was in your position 2 years ago when I switched completely from big lenses and DSLR to just a Leica with two lenses and I can tell you this as long as wildlife is out of the equation than nothing beat the pleasure and engagement of shooting with M camera. First before using M I shoot with Q for 6 month and its good camera but it doesn't gives you the engagement and fun of shooting with M, you can call it as Fuji or Sony experience but with color profile of Leica, and the IQ of Q is not up there with SL, M10 or M240.

which M camera ? I tried both M240 and M10, the M10 for some reason is more engaging experience and better IQ so if you buying today I would say go with M10.

 

Thanks for the advise,  and for confirming my thoughts on the Q

[Flyer]

36 minutes ago, FrozenInTime said:

Definitely go for the M10 or M10-P superb camera, which captures the feel of the M film camera. The M.240 reminds me of the Austin Allegro Vanden Plas.

Manual RF focus soon becomes second nature and hitting focus with a 50/1.4 is a lot easier than MF on an SLR.

The EVF on the M10 is useful for precise framing and  very wide lenses, but slows down camera handling rather too much for everyday use. If you feel you will rely on the EVF, the SL or CL may be better choice.

Beyond small prints , in these days of pixel peeping, zone focus really falls short - there is only one sharp plane and increasing blur.

Many Thanks for this. I can just remember that car and I think I would rather have a more current car😂

[Flyer]

2 hours ago, a.noctilux said:

Flyer,

if you have not done yet, as you never used RF/Leica OVF , first thing is to allow you some time to use one Leica M, renting or borrowing the M combo of your planning "kit".

Maybe RF manual focus is not your cup of tea.

 

In my experience, focussing with RF is much easier than other means when I use 28mm or 35/50mm lens.

As first M, type 240 family can be very good way to begin digital M.

M262 may even be the "right choice", if I had to begin with M.

Coupled with Summarit-M 50mm and Elmarit-M 2.8/28mm asph. , M262 can be this "ideal mini kit", light and not so expensive for Leica ☺️.

I'm lucky to use some digital M, in final results, this combo that I use regularly lets nothing to be desired in place of M10 and much more expensive lenses.

Great advise. I will try and get a rental and see how I get on. 

[Flyer]

2 hours ago, Dirk Mandeville said:

1.  For those that enjoy varying the look and feel of their photos through the use of various lenses and focal lengths, the Q is a bit of a nonstarter as an only camera. It is a fantastic camera, but the limitation of the fixed lens is a a valid consideration. I plan to buy one as a second camera to my M10, but I don’t think I would buy one as my only Leica camera. 

2.  I owned the M9, but skipped the M240 for several reasons. I bought the M10 and now rarely use the M9. I plan to sell the M9 and my 28mm elmarit to finance the purchase of a Q-P or, depending on my patience, a Q2. Between the M240 and the M10, I believe the M10 is the obvious choice. Not even close in my mind. Personally, I would go for quality in my lens purchases. Go slow, be patient, and choose quality lenses (whether Leica, Zeiss or Cv) that suit your shooting needs and your budget. Don’t disregard vintage lenses. They tend to be less expensive, perfectly usable, and can add unique looks over the modern equivalents. 

3.  There is a learning curve with rangefinder focusing and it may take a little while and quite a few missed shots until you are comfortable with it. Older eyes, dim light, and longer or faster lenses shot wide open all make it even more difficult to nail focus. But when you do, the results are worth the effort. Over time, you will adapt and become comfortable with it and be able to focus quickly and accurately. If you can’t manage that for whatever reason, the M10 has the option of the visoflex evf, which makes focusing in difficult circumstances infinitely easier. 

4.  With a wider angle lens stopped down, and an understanding of subject distance and depth of field considerations, zone focusing is pretty easy to do. You will get the hang of that quickly. The harder part with Leica M’s is shooting a 50 1.4 wide open and nailing focus on the eyes of a subject six feet away in difficult lighting. This is where the evf has distinct advantages over the rangefinder. The main thing is to accept the learning curve and the fact that you will miss a lot of shots due to poor focus. I missed a few shots early on for not taking the lens cap off. Looking through the viewfinder and focusing on your subject, you have no idea that the lens is still covered if you forgot to take off the lens cap. 😂  Just chalk these sorts of things to rookie mistakes to be learned from and you will improve quickly. 

Thanks for the detailed help, much appreciated. 

[madrigalmaster]

Leica M 10 with VF is Ok but price is well beyond what it is worth in my opinion.

There have been ,also, many reports of poor customer service when repairs are needed.This is just by reading the blog

Simplicity can be achieved with a Sony 7R III and proper setings.Many advantages here .

If you crave simplicity I use a Sony with Voigtlander lenses and an simple adapter.Wonderful optics

 

[SMAL]

vor 9 Minuten schrieb madrigalmaster:

Leica M 10 with VF is Ok but price is well beyond what it is worth in my opinion.

There have been ,also, many reports of poor customer service when repairs are needed.This is just by reading the blog

Simplicity can be achieved with a Sony 7R III and proper setings.Many advantages here .

If you crave simplicity I use a Sony with Voigtlander lenses and an simple adapter.Wonderful optics

 

Are you maybe in the wrong forum? 

[M11 for me]

vor 5 Stunden schrieb madrigalmaster:

Leica M 10 with VF is Ok but price is well beyond what it is worth in my opinion.

There have been ,also, many reports of poor customer service when repairs are needed.This is just by reading the blog

Simplicity can be achieved with a Sony 7R III and proper setings.Many advantages here .

If you crave simplicity I use a Sony with Voigtlander lenses and an simple adapter.Wonderful optics

 

Probably you do not own any Leica RF. You would not write this. Otherwise there is no doubt that one can be very happy with whatever other brand. But here it is about Leica. 

[dugby]

22 hours ago, Flyer said:

The Leica (whichever model) will be pure indulgence and only used for travel/memories, so I will only be using two of the cheaper Leica lenses - a 50mm and a 28mm.

Hello Flyer,  whilst I read all of your append,  the above sticks to my mind the most.

I also am in a similar scenario as you. But one thing always hangs over my thoughts when shooting, ie you can only get that “favourite” shot once.  So whilst I have many expensive Leica and Zeiss and Voigtlander 35mm to 75mm lenses, I now only shoot with the one and only Leica 50APO

I have many sentimental images captured by both 35mm and 50mm FLE ASPH Summilux-M lenses, I wish I had shot those images with the 50APO.

I am now extremely satisfied to only shoot with this one lens, the 50APO and when I see my family and friends view with delight the images captured by this lens, I know it’s the only lens I should use.

 

I know you mentioned a budget, but in my learned experience, I would suggest that the 50APO lens is a priority above and beyond whichever camera body you end up with.

 

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[Flyer]

On 1/20/2019 at 5:17 PM, Dirk Mandeville said:

1.  For those that enjoy varying the look and feel of their photos through the use of various lenses and focal lengths, the Q is a bit of a nonstarter as an only camera. It is a fantastic camera, but the limitation of the fixed lens is a a valid consideration. I plan to buy one as a second camera to my M10, but I don’t think I would buy one as my only Leica camera. 

2.  I owned the M9, but skipped the M240 for several reasons. I bought the M10 and now rarely use the M9. I plan to sell the M9 and my 28mm elmarit to finance the purchase of a Q-P or, depending on my patience, a Q2. Between the M240 and the M10, I believe the M10 is the obvious choice. Not even close in my mind. Personally, I would go for quality in my lens purchases. Go slow, be patient, and choose quality lenses (whether Leica, Zeiss or Cv) that suit your shooting needs and your budget. Don’t disregard vintage lenses. They tend to be less expensive, perfectly usable, and can add unique looks over the modern equivalents. 

3.  There is a learning curve with rangefinder focusing and it may take a little while and quite a few missed shots until you are comfortable with it. Older eyes, dim light, and longer or faster lenses shot wide open all make it even more difficult to nail focus. But when you do, the results are worth the effort. Over time, you will adapt and become comfortable with it and be able to focus quickly and accurately. If you can’t manage that for whatever reason, the M10 has the option of the visoflex evf, which makes focusing in difficult circumstances infinitely easier. 

4.  With a wider angle lens stopped down, and an understanding of subject distance and depth of field considerations, zone focusing is pretty easy to do. You will get the hang of that quickly. The harder part with Leica M’s is shooting a 50 1.4 wide open and nailing focus on the eyes of a subject six feet away in difficult lighting. This is where the evf has distinct advantages over the rangefinder. The main thing is to accept the learning curve and the fact that you will miss a lot of shots due to poor focus. I missed a few shots early on for not taking the lens cap off. Looking through the viewfinder and focusing on your subject, you have no idea that the lens is still covered if you forgot to take off the lens cap. 😂  Just chalk these sorts of things to rookie mistakes to be learned from and you will improve quickly. 

Thanks for the detailed help, much appreciated. I have ordered an M10 that should be delivered tomorrow and will post my progress as the weeks and months go by. Thanks everyone