m.birnbacher Posted December 26, 2018 Share #1 Posted December 26, 2018 Advertisement (gone after registration) Liebe Mitglieder, ich habe gesucht, aber nicht wirklich was gefunden, daher der neue Beitrag... Ich dachte, dass eine RAW Datei nur die elektronischen Daten des Sensors speichert und alle anderen Informationen wie Farbe, Kontrast und auch Weißabgleich durch den Bildprozessor der Kamera nur in der JPG Datei ausgegeben werden. Nun habe ich in der M10 folgendes "Phänomen": der eingestellte Weißabgleich findet auch in der DNG Datei Verwendung, d.h. sowohl in der Apple Vorschau als auch in CaptureOnePro12 sehe ich den manuellen Weißabgleich und damit die unterschiedliche Farbgebung. Ein "Zurücksetzen" auf wie bei Aufnahme ist dann auch nicht mehr möglich. Ich habe nun einen Artikel dazu gefunden: https://www.pctipp.ch/itipp/artikel/fotografie-ein-dng-ist-kein-raw-86123/ Frage: Liege ich falsch, dass das RAW eigentlich keinen Weißabgleich speichern sollte? Ich schreibe gerade an einer Neufassung meiner Seminarunterlagen und wurde gerade in meinen Grundfesten erschüttert, den WB hatte ich so noch nie getestet, da ich davon überzeugt war, dass das RAW die Sensordaten speichert... Nachträglich FROHE WEIHNACHTEN und zukünftig: ALLES GUTE FÜR 2019 Michel Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted December 26, 2018 Posted December 26, 2018 Hi m.birnbacher, Take a look here Is DNG really RAW on the M10 - Why is whitebalance stored in raw?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
jaapv Posted December 26, 2018 Share #2 Posted December 26, 2018 Ganz einfach. DNG ist wie ein "Umschlag" Da drinnen wird 1. die raw Datei gespeichert und nebenan 2. ein sg. "sidecar file" (.xmp), dass heisst, dass man getrennt sachen wie z.B Weissabgleich extra gespeichert findet. Man kann die extra Daten ganz einfach trennen oder sogar löschen, oder auch ändern in der raw Konvertierung. Very easy. DNG is like an "envelope" Inside there are 1. the raw file and next to it 2. a so-called. "sidecar file" (.xmp), that means that you can find things such as white balance in a separate file . You can easily ignore or delete the extra data, or even change them in the raw conversion. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
m.birnbacher Posted December 26, 2018 Author Share #3 Posted December 26, 2018 vor 2 Minuten schrieb jaapv: Ganz einfach. DNG ist wie ein "Umschlag" [...] Man kann ie extra Daten ganz einfach trennen oder sogar löschen, oder auch ändern in der raw Konvertierung. Danke für die rasche Antwort, hast du eine Ahnung wie ich das trennen kann, zb in CaptureOne? Ist zwar nicht "lebensnotwendig" aber ein cooles Feature zum Präsentieren 🙂 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted December 26, 2018 Share #4 Posted December 26, 2018 Actually, a standard White Balance as a starting point is quite practical. As soon as you change it in C1 the software will update the .xmp file. I am not too familiar with C1 these days, but I am sure that you can save your personal preferences as a default setting. You can do quite a lot in Photoshop preferences, including ignoring the .xmp file. BTW, raw is not just the sensor data. It is a processed file. The camera will process the sensor dump starting with analog-digital conversion and Bayer demosaicing, set a black point, maybe apply some noise reduction, etc. before it writes the .raw file. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/292632-is-dng-really-raw-on-the-m10-why-is-whitebalance-stored-in-raw/?do=findComment&comment=3653409'>More sharing options...
01af Posted December 26, 2018 Share #5 Posted December 26, 2018 vor 23 Minuten schrieb m.birnbacher: Nun habe ich in der M10 folgendes "Phänomen": der eingestellte Weißabgleich findet auch in der DNG-Datei Verwendung, d. h. sowohl in der Apple-Vorschau als auch in Capture One Pro 12 sehe ich den manuellen Weißabgleich und damit die unterschiedliche Farbgebung. Klar. In der DNG-Datei sind die Bilddaten gespeichert, und in den Metadaten dazu die Einstellungen der Kamera ... darunter der Weißabgleich. Jeder anständige Rohdatenkonverter interpretiert diese Metadaten und wendet sie standardmäßig auf die Darstellung der Bilddaten an. Es steht dir frei, sie jederzeit nach Belieben zu ändern ... aber solange du nichts änderst, werden diese Interpretationen der Kameraeinstellungen auf das Bild angewendet. . vor 23 Minuten schrieb m.birnbacher: Ein Zurücksetzen auf "wie bei Aufnahme" ist dann auch nicht mehr möglich. Na ja ... bei der Aufnahme hattest du dich doch für einen Weißabgleich entschieden. Genau das ist der "wie bei der Aufnahme". Den kannst du nachträglich ohne Qualitätsverlust ändern, wie immer es dir beliebt. Aber das war nun einmal die Einstellung "bei der Aufnahme". Was sollte denn deiner Meinung nach ein "Zurücksetzen wie bei der Aufnahme" sonst sein? Solange du im Rohdatenkonverter nichts änderst, wird genau der Weißabgleich angewendet, der an der Kamera zum Zeitpunkt de Aufnahme eingestellt war. Der ist natürlich rein virtuell – aber irgend ein Weißabgleich muß nun einmal beim Anzeigen des Bildes angewendet werden ... 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted December 26, 2018 Share #6 Posted December 26, 2018 Let's try and keep this in English, please -or at least add a translation. This is the international part of the forum, after all... 1 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dao De Leitz Posted December 26, 2018 Share #7 Posted December 26, 2018 Advertisement (gone after registration) vor 13 Minuten schrieb 01af: ..., der an der Kamera zum Zeitpunkt de Aufnahme eingestellt war. Der ist natürlich rein virtuell – aber irgend ein Weißabgleich muß nun einmal beim Anzeigen des Bildes angewendet werden ... Hallo und guten Abend! Interpretiere ich dies richtig? Jeder Sensor - und damit jede Kamera - hat ihren individuellen Weißabgleich. Dieser wird im Fertigungsprozess justiert bzw. parametriert. Die Streuung der Werte für den Weißabgleich ist durch Toleranzen der Sensoren bzw. der Elektronik bedingt und damit spezifisch für eine Kamera. Gruß Thorsten Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
01af Posted December 26, 2018 Share #8 Posted December 26, 2018 vor 10 Minuten schrieb jaapv: This is the international part of the forum, after all ... Oops — you're right. Sorry. I just answered to the original question and didn't realize what sub-forum we're in ... maybe someone can shift this to the forum's German-language part? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted December 26, 2018 Share #9 Posted December 26, 2018 Let’s leave it here, the Germans can start their own discussion, only please use English 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
01af Posted December 26, 2018 Share #10 Posted December 26, 2018 (edited) vor 5 Stunden schrieb m.birnbacher: Ich habe nun einen Artikel dazu gefunden: https://www.pctipp.ch/itipp/artikel/fotografie-ein-dng-ist-kein-raw-86123/ That article ("A DNG file is not raw") is complete nonsense. DNG files are using the TIFF container file format but their contents are as raw as any proprietary raw file's (most of these also are using the TIFF container format, by the way). The only exception is Linear DNG (uh, and Foveon) which indeed are not raw. But regular DNG files (including those coming out of the digital Leica cameras) are not Linear. Edited December 27, 2018 by 01af Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pico Posted December 26, 2018 Share #11 Posted December 26, 2018 (edited) 19 minutes ago, 01af said: That article ("A DNG file is not raw") is complete nonsense. DNG files are using the TIFF container file format but their contents are as raw as any propretary raw file's (most of these also are using the TIFF container format, by the way). The only exception is Linear DNG which indeed is not raw. But regular DNG files (including those coming out of the digital Leica cameras) are not Linear. Perhaps it is correct to state that not all RAW files are DNG compliant. Edited December 26, 2018 by pico Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted December 26, 2018 Share #12 Posted December 26, 2018 Monochrom files are linea (DNG)... http://www.barrypearson.co.uk/articles/dng/linear.htm Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
01af Posted December 26, 2018 Share #13 Posted December 26, 2018 (edited) vor 39 Minuten schrieb jaapv: Monochrom files are linear (DNG) ... No, they are monochrome, not linear. That's not the same thing. Edited December 27, 2018 by 01af Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
01af Posted December 26, 2018 Share #14 Posted December 26, 2018 vor 29 Minuten schrieb pico: Perhaps it is correct to state that not all RAW files are DNG compliant. That's right. Until they are. It usually takes less than three months for any new raw file format to become DNG-compliant. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted December 27, 2018 Share #15 Posted December 27, 2018 17 minutes ago, 01af said: No, they are monochrome, not linear. That's not the same same thing. http://chromasoft.blogspot.com/2015/05/leica-m-monochrom-type-246-raw-file-dng.html Quote The DNG is encoded as "LinearRaw" ("PhotometricInterpretation: LinearRaw"), as was the original Monochrom. The way the DNG spec works, you can either set that to CFA (aka a Bayer array type camera) or to LinearRaw. And this sure isn't a CFA camera. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pico Posted December 27, 2018 Share #16 Posted December 27, 2018 13 minutes ago, 01af said: That's right. Until they are. It usually takes less than three months for any new raw file format to become DNG-compliant. Does the manufacturer change its RAW to become DNG compliant, or does Adobe accommodate to the errant RAW? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted December 27, 2018 Share #17 Posted December 27, 2018 Or the software developer has not implemented the full DNG standard (like Mac for Monochrom files took them a year.) Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
01af Posted December 27, 2018 Share #18 Posted December 27, 2018 vor 3 Minuten schrieb jaapv: http://chromasoft.blogspot.com/2015/05/leica-m-monochrom-type-246-raw-file-dng.html One kind of file (demosaiced Bayer RGB) is marked "Linear" because colour demosaicing already has been done. The others (monochrome and Foveon) are marked "Linear" because colour demosaicing is neither possible nor required. That's two (or three) entirely different things. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted December 27, 2018 Share #19 Posted December 27, 2018 I never said they weren't different things - that is obvious. I was responding to your post that no Leica camera was using linear raw. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adan Posted December 27, 2018 Share #20 Posted December 27, 2018 DNG is a RAW file, of course. It has not yet "baked in" sharpening, WB, contrast, saturation or any particular color profile or color space. Or demosaicing. It is "raw flour" from which the user can bake a picture with the results they want. It provides all the bit-depth the sensor is capable of (mostly - there may be black-point clipping) rather than the 8 bits of a jpeg or other "camera-baked" finished format.. However, most RAW files these days (including .DNGs) are no longer usually just "raw sensor data." They have been converted from electrons to 1s and 0s, they have often had misc. other changes to those 1s and 0s (in Leica Ms, correction patterns for lens-induced "Italian Flag" color stains, in Canon sRAW, downsampling to a smaller number of pixels, applied contrast/tone curves/gammas the camera-maker thinks "look best" as a default, occasionally noise-reduction (long-exposure or high-ISO, depending on maker) or pre-sharpening). And of course have metadata in the packaging, for the WB the camera would have applied to a jpeg ("As shot") and so on. I've never quite sure what various people mean when they say digital output is "linear." But what it does not mean (at least for 15 years or so) is: double the exposure or scene brightness = double the brightness value in the final data. Attached are the "tone curves" from an M10 and Canon 6D for a little research I am doing on the M10 sensitometry. Gray card "bracket-exposed" in 1-stop intervals, with the .DNG processed in ACR with all settings "zeroed out." It is clear that overexposing/underexposing the gray card 1 or 2 or 3 stops does not translate to 2 or 4 or 8 times as high/low a "brightness value." Except in the very lowest shadows, where indeed a 1-stop exposure increase (double the light) results in close to a doubling of the output brightness value. 7.5 stops under give "2", 6.5 stops under gives "4." Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/292632-is-dng-really-raw-on-the-m10-why-is-whitebalance-stored-in-raw/?do=findComment&comment=3653541'>More sharing options...
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