Leica S3 announced @ photokina

[darylgo]

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Too little too late.   I agree but once I use my aging 006 I can't help but love the camera and results.  The choices today that rival the S are great, I want to see my lenses on the new model before making any decisions, but it does feel like the S is all but ignored.  

[ZHNL]

I know this is a Leica thread full of Leica users (myself included with the S2, S006 and a bunch of lenses), and I could change my mind of course, but if the new S is priced above 20,000, there's no way I will get one. Leaving aside a proposed 100mp, in body-stabilized, 4K video shooting, GFX teased for next year, the Fuji GFX 50R is announced for November at 4500 dollars. They have very good technology in that camera, it has a better sensor shape (for me at least...I mostly crop to 4x5, and that means the 37.5mp S is 33mp), it is smaller, lighter, with great lenses as well, 60 minutes of long exposure instead of 2 (according to the new S3 specs posted). I would pay a premium for the S3, but a realistic premium is 25%-50% more, not six or seven times more. I chose not to buy the 007 because it did not offer enough added value to me over the 006, and that was already 4 years ago...even when it was 10,000 or 11,000 dollars it did not rise to the level where I thought it was worth buying compared to the 006...the image quality of the 007 is arguably worse at base ISO if you prefer CCD colors, which many do, myself included. If the price of entry is 20,000+, I fear that the game is over. I would likely buy it if it were 15,000...that is certainly a large premium over Fuji and Hasselblad, let alone Canon, Sony and Nikon. The updated resolution is great and so is the 4K full sensor, but this really should have been the camera in 2014, and then it would have justified the price and the upgrade. In 2019 it is just par for the course for MF at a high price. If they want to price like Phase One and Hasselblad's SLR's, then they should also compete in that realm: their own proprietary software packages, interchangeable backs to use on tech cams and studio setups, and 100-150mp backs with special filtering, multi-shot, integrated profoto transmitters, options for scientific and cultural heritage applications etc. There is a reason why those cameras cost even more than the S. The S is very well built, but the sensor specs have been underwhelming since 2013 or so. I also think this overenthusiastic pricing is why the second hand value of the S system is so terrible, and why most of us can count on one hand the number of S users we have ever seen outside gathering of Leica users.  

I have really enjoyed your Iceland images with S over the years, and will do so no matter what system you use. Your voice should be heard that all Leica users will benefit from. 

 

S007 to S006 upgrade mainly aim for speed of operating and shutter improvement with LV and Video. Now S3 to S007 upgrade is mainly aim for resolution and IQ. 

 

Price and value wise, there is no argument that Leica can't compete. That has been always the way. You can see many have issues with Leica price. However, this is the business model Leica choose many years ago that either for you or not. I don't want pay full Leica retail price but I will not complain its price either. With existing Lenses acquired over the years, I can certainly stretch myself now for S003 if I feel the need for resolution and IQ. (am not) Swapping system is a big hassle financially and time wise especially for niche MF system.  

 

Feature wise, I think a cheap Panasonic GH will give better video than both Leica S and FUJI now and future. I am personally never a fan of inbody IS from any camera manufacturer for still image capture. I only use it for video and for lens longer than 135mm with Sony AND I DO TURN IT OFF when I capture the image unless I am in extreme low light that I just have to get the images. The IS will give you looks decent sharp images, but most of time can't stand a chance viewing 100%. (so non usable for me) It will screw up at condition(shutter speed) that I can hand hold perfectly. Hence, I prefer handhold with better technic and shorter shutter speed most of time if condition permit. This is a feature more important for EVF based camera due to slow refresh rate, the images through VF can be more jittery without, especially for long glass. 

 

Format wise, I would prefer 4X3 as well. but 3X2 do have benefit for stitch vertical to get 1X1 and 4X5 with more resolution(sure with limitation) and Leica S format give slightly better single shot 2X1 3X1 cinematic images.  

 

Long exposure limitation is a big headache of Leica user and I am shocked to see it is still there after 10 years. 

 

Overall, this S3 is really a S007 with more resolution, which is fine with me. As exciting as those new technology announced, really none of them are essential for me and give me better enjoyment over even old S006, not to mention a still quite modern S007. (The operating responsiveness of 007 is actually faster than last Sony A7RII I used.) 

Edited September 26, 2018 by ZHNL

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[MarkP]

 

 

Long exposure limitation is a big headache of Leica user and I am shocked to see it is still there after 10 years. 

 

 

Glad to see someone mentioned this - still only 2min.

Does it also have LENR that can't be turned off?

[helged]

Glad to see someone mentioned this - still only 2min.

Does it also have LENR that can't be turned off?

 

 

From David Farkas, on Red Dot Forum's Facebook page (with no definite conclusion, as far as I understand). More info about the S3 tomorrow, according to David.

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Edited September 26, 2018 by helged

[Stuart Richardson]

ZHNL: thanks for the kind words. Don't get me wrong, I would love an S3. It will compete well with the Fuji and Hasselblad equivalents, being better in some areas, worse in others. The reason I am so perturbed is that if the rumoured price of 24,000 euros is true, it means that I have waited 4+ years for a resolution update, lost thousands of euros in depreciation on my lenses and bodies to the point where the S2 is nearly unsellable, only to get a new S at a price point which is totally out of line with the current realities of the market. The whole Leica is Leica pricing argument is pretty old at this point. Fuji and Hasselblad are not exactly bargain basement camera manufacturers, and their circa 50mp cameras are 6500 dollars, not 28,000. Value is of course subjective, but just because one might have 28,000 dollars to spend on an S3 does not mean one should...paying more than you have to is not luxurious, it is unwise.

[ZHNL]

Glad to see someone mentioned this - still only 2min.

Does it also have LENR that can't be turned off?

Not seen it mention anywhere. Given the 2 mins limitation, I think long exposure noise is still a problem for this camera. I would guess it will be the same old mandatory NR.

Most EVF abased camera(especially the one with in body IS) such as Sony also have this issue that DR will drop about one stop or more compare 1/60s or 30s. Nikon is great on this though. I don’t know how X1D or FUJI did here. No matter what, competitors must be way better than our S here.

[ZHNL]

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ZHNL: thanks for the kind words. Don't get me wrong, I would love an S3. It will compete well with the Fuji and Hasselblad equivalents, being better in some areas, worse in others. The reason I am so perturbed is that if the rumoured price of 24,000 euros is true, it means that I have waited 4+ years for a resolution update, lost thousands of euros in depreciation on my lenses and bodies to the point where the S2 is nearly unsellable, only to get a new S at a price point which is totally out of line with the current realities of the market. The whole Leica is Leica pricing argument is pretty old at this point. Fuji and Hasselblad are not exactly bargain basement camera manufacturers, and their circa 50mp cameras are 6500 dollars, not 28,000. Value is of course subjective, but just because one might have 28,000 dollars to spend on an S3 does not mean one should...paying more than you have to is not luxurious, it is unwise.

I understand. I think what Leica can do here is offering upgrade path for existing Leica owner to allow them trade in S at decent price as a compensation for all the misfortune happened to S system. They are responsible for current S market condition after all. They did that for S006 to S007. We might get something later after initial market need fulfilled.

 

I am not happy with my S006 sensor corrosion solution Leica gave myself and I fully understand your point. Just want to offer a different perrapective to help others one way or the other.

[alan.y]

I understand. I think what Leica can do here is offering upgrade path for existing Leica owner to allow them trade in S at decent price as a compensation for all the misfortune happened to S system. They are responsible for current S market condition after all. They did that for S006 to S007. We might get something later after initial market need fulfilled.

 

I am not happy with my S006 sensor corrosion solution Leica gave myself and I fully understand your point. Just want to offer a different perrapective to help others one way or the other.

 

Given the absurd MSRP of $28000, I don't see how any upgrade path can be viable. How much would Leica give you for your used S007? Even if they gave you $10k the difference would still be far from competitive in today's market.

 

Maybe the rumored sensor swap can be cheaper. 

Edited September 27, 2018 by alan.y

[kparseg]

Unfortunately, S3 is a very bad decision.... Spec wise, it's outdated already, and other Photokina announcements made it even more obsolete. I don't know why Leica is killing such a wonderful system.

 

My guess is that lots of S users will keep their gear for another 1-2 years and then will move elsewhere (read Fujifilm). 

[AlanD]

I don’t recall what Leica rumors said about the S3 tech but I do remember claiming that the L-Mount rumors were bogus.

 

https://leicarumors.com/2018/09/21/what-leica-sigma-and-panasonic-to-release-a-new-full-frame-mirrorless-camera-with-sl-mount.aspx/

 

“I contacted many of my sources that have been providing me correct information for over a decade and nobody has heard of a new Panasonic full frame mirrorless camera with a Leica SL mount so far. If this rumor really materializes, this would be the best-kept secret in the photography industry. “

 

Not the best kept secret —just to Leica Rumor’s sources....

[AlanD]

I understand. I think what Leica can do here is offering upgrade path for existing Leica owner to allow them trade in S at decent price as a compensation for all the misfortune happened to S system. They are responsible for current S market condition after all. They did that for S006 to S007. We might get something later after initial market need fulfilled.

 

I am not happy with my S006 sensor corrosion solution Leica gave myself and I fully understand your point. Just want to offer a different perrapective to help others one way or the other.

I also think the L Mount pathway is important. Leica glass has value. If Leica had a Fuji partnership then a future mirrorless MF could be built around Fuji glass and a S to GF adapter could be made. Potentially Leica could partner with Hasselblad, opening up Phocus to the S. (Now that Hasselblad is desperate) and having S-CS lenses compatible with X1D and an adapter?

[RVB]

Unfortunately, S3 is a very bad decision.... Spec wise, it's outdated already, and other Photokina announcements made it even more obsolete. I don't know why Leica is killing such a wonderful system.

 

My guess is that lots of S users will keep their gear for another 1-2 years and then will move elsewhere (read Fujifilm). 

 

 

Which MF system has glass to match the S glass?

[kparseg]

Which MF system has glass to match the S glass?

Oh please, let's not go there...For portraits, Fuji's GF lenses are at least as good if not better (granted, no leaf shutter lenses, which is a shame). For landscapes, some of Rodenstock lenses are bar none, let's not even compare them to S. 

 

Do you have any side by side tests to show that S lenses are superior to all others? Neil showed us some paired tests (not perfect but still better than nothing) where he compared S vs HC lenses. I couldn't see much difference between them (granted, on a monitor and not in prints). 

[LeicaR10]

Kparseg,   I submit to all in the S forum, the number of MPs mean nothing in the grand scheme of photographic life.  I easily get billboard size images from both my M10-P and SL with no problems.  When I owned the S system it only made making billboard/mural size images for my clients a little easier.  The weight of the S and long-distance remote hiking is why I don't use it any more.  I am always amused by the photographers that seem to forget their photograph content and what it portrays, is by far, more important than the number of MPs of the camera.  Last, the new S3 body did not change for a reason.  It is a very mature camera body.  There will be no reason why S007 owners can not simply send in their cameras to Leica Wetzlar and have the sensor and board upgraded for a lot less money than a new S3.  Don't be surprised, once the new S3 arrives and sales taper off, that Leica offers an "up grade" service for S007 owners....all I can say, is watch that space.  If I was a S007 owner and really, really needed/wanted a 64MP sensor, I would wait for the upgrade service to be made available. In the meantime, I suggest to all;  Simply enjoy your most excellent S system cameras and lenses...and keep this in mind, "When you have the best, you don't need the rest."   r/ Mark

Edited September 27, 2018 by LeicaR10

[kparseg]

Kparseg,   I submit to all in the S forum, the number of MPs mean nothing in the grand scheme of photographic life.  I easily get billboard size images from both my M10-P and SL with no problems.  When I owned the S system it only made making billboard/mural size images for my clients a little easier.  The weight of the S and long-distance remote hiking is why I don't use it any more.  I am always amused by the photographers that seem to forget their photograph content and what it portrays, is by far, more important than the number of MPs of the camera.  Last, the new S3 body did not change for a reason.  It is a very mature camera body.  There will be no reason why S007 owners can not simply send in their cameras to Leica Wetzlar and have the sensor and board upgraded for a lot less money than a new S3.  Don't be surprised, once the new S3 arrives and sales taper off, that Leica offers an "up grade" service for S007 owners....all I can say, is watch that space.  If I was a S007 owner and really, really needed/wanted a 64MP sensor, I would wait for the upgrade service to be made available. In the meantime, I suggest to all;  Simply enjoy your most excellent S system cameras and lenses...and keep this in mind, "When you have the best, you don't need the rest."   r/ Mark

Few questions.

1. What made you think I was talking specifically about the number of megapixels? Other companies announce multiple other improvements in their cameras, lenses, accessories, etc.

2. What noticeable improvements does S3 have that 4-year-old S007 does not?

3. If the number of megapixels doesn't make much difference for you and for other S users, what will make them upgrade to S3

4. If the S3 is a mature product and 90% of R&D has been done before, why does Leica charge premium for S3? Don't you think this is insult to Leica users?

 

You're saying that Leica can announce some kind of upgrade service, but at what price? P1 also announced an $20k upgrade from IQ3 to IQ4, which lots of P1 users considered as insult. How long do you think P1 is going to survive?

 

All I want to say is that I love S system and I enjoy those photographs I took using S every time I look at that. No, I have no financial issues buying any camera, including S3. But I consider that Leica insults all its costumers by releasing S3 with these specs, at that price, and in 2019. 

[RVB]

Oh please, let's not go there...For portraits, Fuji's GF lenses are at least as good if not better (granted, no leaf shutter lenses, which is a shame). For landscapes, some of Rodenstock lenses are bar none, let's not even compare them to S. 

 

Do you have any side by side tests to show that S lenses are superior to all others? Neil showed us some paired tests (not perfect but still better than nothing) where he compared S vs HC lenses. I couldn't see much difference between them (granted, on a monitor and not in prints). 

 

Isn't Rodenstock tech cam only ? I'd like to see a comparison between Fuji lenses and S.No leaf shutters is a deal breaker for many photographers.

 

I had a HC system for a while after buying an S, I spent a few days comparing all glass, S glass was considerably better, a fellow photographer did the tests with me (he uses an IQ100 system) and even he was surprised how superior the S glass was.

Edited September 27, 2018 by RVB

[ZHNL]

Given the absurd MSRP of $28000, I don't see how any upgrade path can be viable. How much would Leica give you for your used S007? Even if they gave you $10k the difference would still be far from competitive in today's market.

 

Maybe the rumored sensor swap can be cheaper. 

 

I am not sure how you value competitive as long as they can sell it at their asking price, they are fine. If they can't, price will go down. Or they will lose money, S line is closed, everybody lose. 

Few questions.

1. What made you think I was talking specifically about the number of megapixels? Other companies announce multiple other improvements in their cameras, lenses, accessories, etc.

2. What noticeable improvements does S3 have that 4-year-old S007 does not?

3. If the number of megapixels doesn't make much difference for you and for other S users, what will make them upgrade to S3

4. If the S3 is a mature product and 90% of R&D has been done before, why does Leica charge premium for S3? Don't you think this is insult to Leica users?

 

You're saying that Leica can announce some kind of upgrade service, but at what price? P1 also announced an $20k upgrade from IQ3 to IQ4, which lots of P1 users considered as insult. How long do you think P1 is going to survive?

 

All I want to say is that I love S system and I enjoy those photographs I took using S every time I look at that. No, I have no financial issues buying any camera, including S3. But I consider that Leica insults all its costumers by releasing S3 with these specs, at that price, and in 2019. 

We know Leica's price is high, that is not a news. As you mentioned you have no problem afford S3 but You are very cleared that Leica S is not for you. We get it. What I feel is you seems still like what S offered that some other competitors can't, but you are not willing to pay the price. That is exact the reason Leica can ask that price because some others see the same thing and they think it worth it.

 

BTW, do we know retail price of S3? I haven't see anywhere say it is $28000 yet. 

 

Rodenstock lens are not cheap and most start from f5.6, it has very limited usage with niche followers.  Again, Leica is not value based system, we can't complain 50 summicron's price when compared nikon 50mm f1.8 at $200. It is not a news for us that at f5.6 nikon 50mm f1.8 will be almost as good. they are simply offered at different market section with different price structure and target audience. Leica is not stupid, if they can sell S3 at $28000, so be it. IF no taker, loser will be Leica not customer who don't buy it.  

[kparseg]

Isn't Rodenstock tech cam only ? I'd like to see a comparison between Fuji lenses and S.No leaf shutters is a deal breaker for many photographers.

 

I had a HC system for a while after buying an S, I spent a few days comparing all glass, S glass was considerably better, a fellow photographer did the tests with me (he uses an IQ100 system) and even he was surprised how superior the S glass was.

 

Well, if you're serious about your landscapes/architecture, you'll be using tech cam. But I'm sure blue ring P1 lenses are almost as good as some Rodenstock lenses, if you prefer non-tech cameras.

 

Can't really say anything about Hassy HC lenses, I've never used ones. 

 

I agree with you that leaf shutter is important for many photogs, and Fuji probably lost many customers by not giving them leaf shutter lenses. Hassy X1D has leaf shutter but rendition is not that great, unfortunately. So, so far, I find Leica's approach for S lenses regarding CS to be the best among others. If one needs it, go ahead and buy CS lens. If you don't, then buy a non-CS version. Too bad 100S doesn't have the CS version.

[alan.y]

Someone pointed out that the S 007 was announced at $25400 but released at $16900. So it seems probable that the S3 will end up selling officially for around $20k, and unofficially (as so-called "open box" items or otherwise) for less. Still, the high MSRPs prop up a whole system of exorbitant repairs and upgrades. Their U-turn on corroded sensor and AF motor repairs, and the opaque 5-year-from-manufacture limit, is alarming. A recent post here cited a Leica customer rep saying EUR 450 for the AF motor repair was "below cost" for Leica, so they had to charge EUR 650 instead. Leica bills like a corporate lawyer--for a design flaw that shouldn't have been in the first place.

 

ZHNL's S 006 had a corroded sensor. He was recently asked by Leica to choose between upgrading to the S 007 or paying for the S006's repair more than what a certified used 006 body costs. He wrote a sad post about this, so I imagine it must be funny for him to be told "if you like to be milked by Leica..."

 

It's curious how this forum is populated by disillusioned S users who return to express their love-hate for the system (myself increasingly among them). My problem with Leica isn't the luxury premium per se. It's what seems to be cynical abuse of the aforesaid loyalty. 

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[mgrayson3]

 

I just don't see others as attractive now. If you do, just take that opportunity. 

 

 

Perfect summary!