Leica S3 announced @ photokina

[John McMaster]

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New CMOS chip, color array, etc.... see Farkas blog linked above (twice).

 

Jeff

 

I have read it, where did I contradict what it said?  Higher resolution and ISO both come from the chip, everything else looks to be S(007) after firmware 5.0.0

 

john

[Jeff S]

I have read it, where did I contradict what it said? Higher resolution and ISO both come from the chip, everything else looks to be S(007) after firmware 5.0.0

 

john

You wrote ‘no sensor upgrade from 007’, essentially higher MP. There is a new color array, for one, as you wondered about image quality apart from resolution. Refers to new architecture not appearing in other Leica sensors, lower power consumption, etc. Could be marketing speak, but they’re touting changes and improvements beyond pixel count.

 

Jeff

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[alan.y]

You wrote ‘no sensor upgrade from 007’, essentially higher MP. There is a new color array, for one, as you wondered about image quality apart from resolution. Refers to new architecture not appearing in other Leica sensors, lower power consumption, etc. Could be marketing speak, but they’re touting changes and improvements beyond pixel count.

 

Jeff

 

He meant sensor upgrade as in upgrade the sensor in your current S 007.

[Jeff S]

He meant sensor upgrade as in upgrade the sensor in your current S 007.

Ok, I see. But the interview comments regarding improvements beyond MP still apply, including color quality.

 

Jeff

[dfarkas]

Just to clarify: This isn't marketing speak. The people that I spoke to regarding the new sensor architecture are engineers. While they were reluctant to share too much technical information, they were more than confident in making image quality claims based on extensive internal testing.

 

So, yes, the S3 will be pushing close to 16 stops of DR, will have 2 stops better ISO performance and improved color. All while offering a sizable jump in resolution with lower power consumption. Win, win. 

 

I took a look back at interviews I conducted last Photokina and they said that they weren't going to increase resolution on the S until the sensor technology offered better quality along with more pixels. Clearly, that is what Leica was able to accomplish here. But, remember, they aren't just using an off-the-shelf sensor like the Sony 50MP that is making the rounds. This is a Leica exclusive sensor architecture that they developed from scratch. Doing this takes time and considerable resources.

[alan.y]

Just to clarify: This isn't marketing speak. The people that I spoke to regarding the new sensor architecture are engineers. While they were reluctant to share too much technical information, they were more than confident in making image quality claims based on extensive internal testing.

 

So, yes, the S3 will be pushing close to 16 stops of DR, will have 2 stops better ISO performance and improved color. All while offering a sizable jump in resolution with lower power consumption. Win, win. 

 

I took a look back at interviews I conducted last Photokina and they said that they weren't going to increase resolution on the S until the sensor technology offered better quality along with more pixels. Clearly, that is what Leica was able to accomplish here. But, remember, they aren't just using an off-the-shelf sensor like the Sony 50MP that is making the rounds. This is a Leica exclusive sensor architecture that they developed from scratch. Doing this takes time and considerable resources.

 

Thank you David for the great reporting and for breathing some live into the S!

 

Did you manage to evaluate the "full frame" 4K video? Did they improve rolling shutter and aliasing artifacts, and add more adjustment parameters over the S007?

 

(Given that the S3 uses the same Maestro II processor but on twice the amount of data, I would guess no.)

[dfarkas]

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Thank you David for the great reporting and for breathing some live into the S!

 

Did you manage to evaluate the "full frame" 4K video? Did they improve rolling shutter and aliasing artifacts, and add more adjustment parameters over the S007?

 

(Given that the S3 uses the same Maestro II processor but on twice the amount of data, I would guess no.)

 

I only saw the 4K video on the rear LCD and honestly didn't try to move the camera laterally to test for rolling shutter. From what I could see on the LCD, it looked nice, but I would definitely want to test this once the camera gets closer to final release. 

[007]

Thanks David,

 

I think the reviewers will address the better image when they get it. As you said:

"they said that they weren't going to increase resolution on the S until the sensor technology offered better quality along with more pixels. Clearly, that is what Leica was able to accomplish here."

 

But as long as we are in a marketing megapixel war, enthusiasts will merely say someone else has more resolution. I'm glad Leica waited on the resolution increase until they could also say improved image, especially DR.

 

I've printed and sold 90"x60" prints with the current resolution. So I wouldn't upgrade just for some bragging rights on resolution. But almost 16 stops of DR is very important to me. Full frame 4K is important to me.

[rosuna]

Just to clarify: This isn't marketing speak. The people that I spoke to regarding the new sensor architecture are engineers. While they were reluctant to share too much technical information, they were more than confident in making image quality claims based on extensive internal testing.

 

So, yes, the S3 will be pushing close to 16 stops of DR, will have 2 stops better ISO performance and improved color. All while offering a sizable jump in resolution with lower power consumption. Win, win. 

 

I took a look back at interviews I conducted last Photokina and they said that they weren't going to increase resolution on the S until the sensor technology offered better quality along with more pixels. Clearly, that is what Leica was able to accomplish here. But, remember, they aren't just using an off-the-shelf sensor like the Sony 50MP that is making the rounds. This is a Leica exclusive sensor architecture that they developed from scratch. Doing this takes time and considerable resources.

 

 

Do you think these technologies may be scaled down to 24x36 for a future SL and M11 sensor?

[dfarkas]

Do you think these technologies may be scaled down to 24x36 for a future SL and M11 sensor?

 

I really hope so. 

 

But.... the incredible S007 sensor never was scaled down. The M10, SL, and Q used a different sensor architecture which was better suited to Live View operation. 

[BernardC]

Did you manage to evaluate the "full frame" 4K video? Did they improve rolling shutter and aliasing artifacts, and add more adjustment parameters over the S007?

 

(Given that the S3 uses the same Maestro II processor but on twice the amount of data, I would guess no.)

 

Rolling shutter should be a function of the sensor, not the processor, so there's still hope.

 

The S7 didn't do interpolation in 4K (it used a Super-35 crop). Was there aliasing? I haven't seen much video from that camera, probably because it had severe limitations (no cine lenses, nothing wider than a 24, costs as much as a used Arriflex).

[albertknappmd]

great news so far!

 

Did they have to decrease pixel size in order to ramp up to 64MP?

 

If so, why did the DR not suffer as a consequence???

 

Albert     

[AlanD]

great news so far!

 

Did they have to decrease pixel size in order to ramp up to 64MP?

 

If so, why did the DR not suffer as a consequence???

 

Albert

Theoretically, all things equal, it should have cut the DR by 1-stop. But improvements in full well capacity (think about deep and narrow buckets vs shallow and wide) and improvements in read noise can translate into improvements in DR.

 

I am a bit skeptical, but who knows. Theoretically, all things equal, the 64MP sensor should be about 2/3 stop better than the 100MP sensor, all things equal.

[Belle123]

After seeing the potential price tag, I will hug my Hasselblad. Actually, all Leica equipment is going so sky high to the point I won’t be adding to the Leica gear I have. I recognize the quality. But, this is just ridiculous.

[hoppyman]

...and following on from that general sentiment; I find it interesting that there seems to be a general deafening silence of existing S users on this Leica-enthusiast forum, saying that they are rushing out to get an S3 body upgrade. Have Leica pushed it too far re: price/performance/specs ?

There is no production as yet of course. Perhaps when they become available existing system users like myself will be discussing price/performance and possibilities

[BernardC]

After seeing the potential price tag, I will hug my Hasselblad.

I would never stop someone from hugging their favourite camera! However, the key word here is "potential."

People are speculating about what the S3 might sell for, and others repeat it as fact. Leica hasn't listed a price yet, and there are always deals to be had (especially once initial demand has been satiated).

[kparseg]

I would never stop someone from hugging their favourite camera! However, the key word here is "potential."

People are speculating about what the S3 might sell for, and others repeat it as fact. Leica hasn't listed a price yet, and there are always deals to be had (especially once initial demand has been satiated).

But these possible Leica's deals are most likely going to be far and far behind Fuji's deals offered by B&H today. 

[BernardC]

But these possible Leica's deals are most likely going to be far and far behind Fuji's deals offered by B&H today. 

 

Obviously, the subjective "best deal" is going to be on the camera you want.

 

It would take more than a rebate to make me want the Fuji; I find it awkwardly designed with buttons on every available surface, slow to operate, and with a poor viewfinder.

Someone who practices a different type photography may find it entirely acceptable.

 

My initial thought when I saw the Hasselblad X1-D, and the corresponding Fuji, was that they were going for the Sony A7R market.

That's smart, there are quite a few photographers who are frustrated by the high-megapixel Sony, and who are ready to spend a bit more to improve their ratio of "keepers." Photographer who upgrade from the Sony to either of these mirrorless cameras will find that the quality of their images, and the ease of achieving that quality, has improved tremendously. The improvement will be much greater than the small increase in megapixels suggests.

 

That's an entirely different market from the Leica S. Perhaps we will see Leica offer something in this market eventually. They already offer the Sinar 30|45, but that's too complex for your typical hobbyist landscape photographer.

[erlingmm]

...

 

That's an entirely different market from the Leica S. Perhaps we will see Leica offer something in this market eventually. They already offer the Sinar 30|45, but that's too complex for your typical hobbyist landscape photographer.

 

 

A wide-angle tilt/shift would help a lot.

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[kparseg]

Obviously, the subjective "best deal" is going to be on the camera you want.

 

It would take more than a rebate to make me want the Fuji; I find it awkwardly designed with buttons on every available surface, slow to operate, and with a poor viewfinder.

Someone who practices a different type photography may find it entirely acceptable.

 

My initial thought when I saw the Hasselblad X1-D, and the corresponding Fuji, was that they were going for the Sony A7R market.

That's smart, there are quite a few photographers who are frustrated by the high-megapixel Sony, and who are ready to spend a bit more to improve their ratio of "keepers." Photographer who upgrade from the Sony to either of these mirrorless cameras will find that the quality of their images, and the ease of achieving that quality, has improved tremendously. The improvement will be much greater than the small increase in megapixels suggests.

 

That's an entirely different market from the Leica S. Perhaps we will see Leica offer something in this market eventually. They already offer the Sinar 30|45, but that's too complex for your typical hobbyist landscape photographer.

The point I was trying to make is that other companies offer very attractive deals to bring more new customers into the system. Fuji vs Leica vs something else is a personal choice.