M10 M-D

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[jmr237]

For those of you who have used the camera, does the wifi and app integration on the M10-D offer anything you can’t do with an M10 or M10-P?

[Guest]

1 hour ago, rramesh said:

I believe that soon there will be a market for an expensive red velcro to stick that iPhone to the back of the M10-D for a two handed operation.

or a leather half-case for both iPhone+M10-D for quick chimping 

[jmahto]

I gave some more thought. The fake lever is not without a function. The issue (objection or ridicule) is that it doesn’t do what it looks like should be doing. But then isn’t the ISO knob in M10 similar? It also doesn’t do what a similar knob in film M will be doing.

I just hope they keep the function of viewfinder same in future designs. 

Edited October 25, 2018 by jmahto

[jmr237]

12 minutes ago, jmahto said:

The fake lever is not without a function. The issue (objection or ridicule) is that it doesn’t do what it looks like should be doing. But then isn’t the ISO knob in M10 similar? It also doesn’t do what a similar knob in film M will be going.

 

This is a fair point.

[Nick Bedford]

I wonder if they would ever reach the point where they would be bold enough to make a manual M6 equivalent?

Power switch somewhere (M7 style?), manual ISO wheel with third stop increments, manual shutter speed B to 1/4000th, ▶●◀ light meter and the film thumb rest lever.

[scott kirkpatrick]

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2 hours ago, Jeff S said:

The Three Blind Men reviewer got less than 100 shots from a full battery when keeping the app connected. 

Considering his ratio of talk to action, I'm surprised that the battery lasted for the whole taping.  I would estimate about two hours while shooting is a max.  It has nothing to do with how many shots you take, it's the number of images that you transmit and the time that the wifi is maintaining its connection that drains it.

[ramarren]

37 minutes ago, Nick Bedford said:

I wonder if they would ever reach the point where they would be bold enough to make a manual M6 equivalent?

Power switch somewhere (M7 style?), manual ISO wheel with third stop increments, manual shutter speed B to 1/4000th, ▶●◀ light meter and the film thumb rest lever.

That is, in fact, the M-D typ 262 in essence, although it also does aperture priority AE and the shutter speed range is B, plus 8s to 1/4000th timed. Just don't set the shutter dial to Auto and it is what you list above, minus the (useless to me) film thumb lever. 

I won't buy a camera with that thumb rest thingie unless I can remove it because I do not want it, period. 

Edited October 25, 2018 by ramarren

[scott kirkpatrick]

2 hours ago, jmr237 said:

For those of you who have used the camera, does the wifi and app integration on the M10-D offer anything you can’t do with an M10 or M10-P?

It's hard to say.  During the public FOTOS beta various settings appeared  which gave access to what would be menus displayed on an M10.  Some would be set once, then forget -- example: auto focus mag vs manual-only from the front button when in live view.  Others you would need to use as operations, such as the timer or continuous shooting controls.  These disappeared in the public version which you can now download from the AppStore or PlayStore.  But the LeicaStoreMiami posted a timeline for Fotos which included a "November settings update" coming in a month or two or three.  So maybe all those are being done together to get them right before a public release.  Track LeicaRumors for more uncertain estimates of how Leica is doing on this.  I certainly won't know until I can try it.

[scott kirkpatrick]

43 minutes ago, ramarren said:

That is, in fact, the M-D typ 262 in essence, although it also does aperture priority AE and the shutter speed range is B, plus 8s to 1/4000th timed. Just don't set the shutter dial to Auto and it is what you list above, minus the (useless to me) film thumb lever. 

I won't buy a camera with that thumb rest thingie unless I can remove it because I do not want it, period. 

I think the M-D [262] is our reference point: it's an M7 (film, with battery and Aperture priority exposure) reworked slightly for digital capture.  The visceral reaction to the "thumb rest thingie" is being dealt with in SE China as we sleep.  I expect to see a kit from Technical Match within a few weeks; some of our handier members have already removed theirs.  Of course if the replacement ring comes with engraved dragons or monograms, there may be another visceral reaction...  But aesthetics aside, each addition has a cost/benefit tradeoff.  for the Visoflex, I think it is a clear win, since you can focus or frame non-standard lenses with it.  And also see the exposure dials and the histogram if you would like to.  As for the smartphone as a control center, I think I will use that very little until it is done right. 

edit:  Actually, instead of engraved dragons, I would expect to see Leica supply (from an unnamed partner) an upgrade of the "thingie" to a ring with engraved Elven runes that glow with a golden light whenever the camera enters the state of Hesse.

 

Edited October 25, 2018 by scott kirkpatrick

[schattenundlicht]

I am myself astonished that I feel so strongly about this. I find the faux lever even more offensive than the laughable Hermes handbag editions of old. To me, it is a betrayal of the design philosophy that made Leica great in the first place, and of the M series that, although a break with Barnack‘s LTM design, was yet an extension of his functional principles. On the bottom line it is just so mind boggling ridiculous.

I will lay it to rest now and enjoy my M3,7,9,10 

[schattenundlicht]

4 minutes ago, scott kirkpatrick said:

 [...] "thumb rest thingie" is being dealt with in SE China as we sleep.  I expect to see a kit from Technical Match within a few weeks; [...]

The idea of purchasing a third party gimmick in order to remove a central design feature of a brand new 8,000$ camera gives me a giggling fit. What fun Leica has bestowed upon us!

[scott kirkpatrick]

8 minutes ago, schattenundlicht said:

The idea of purchasing a third party gimmick in order to remove a central design feature of a brand new 8,000$ camera gives me a giggling fit. What fun Leica has bestowed upon us!

I guess you don't have a drawerfull of IR-cut filters and goth black nail polish from the M8 days.  Or use a Thumbs-up holder.

Edited October 25, 2018 by scott kirkpatrick

[UliWer]

vor 30 Minuten schrieb schattenundlicht:

I am myself astonished that I feel so strongly about this. I find the faux lever even more offensive than the laughable Hermes handbag editions of old. To me, it is a betrayal of the design philosophy that made Leica great in the first place, and of the M series that, although a break with Barnack‘s LTM design, was yet an extension of his functional principles. On the bottom line it is just so mind boggling ridiculous.

I will lay it to rest now and enjoy my M3,7,9,10 

I‘d like to refer to a discussion from 2012 in the german part of the forum:

The thread was started about whether to use a thumbsrest with the M9.

Telewatt, who is a professional photographer, criticized that the advance lever was left out on the digital M bodies, because the designers never had thought of its function as a thumbsrest. He argued that many users missed it because it would be useful in its original place even after it  lost its primary function to move the film and it wouldn‘t be bothering if it just had kept its place in its tradtional form. He feared that this easy solution would not be realized due to objections by the design people.

Some postings later, Sketch, another professional photographer agreed with him and said that the thumbsrest function of the lever was obvious to people who used the older M bodies. He thought that many people missed it and started to pimp their cameras with additional devices.

This was in 2012 - and the people involved in the discussion where far from propagating a new Leica model of 2018.

Sometimes old postings in this forum might give a different perspective on our upsets of today.

[Nick Bedford]

What would happen if you used the M10-D and found out that the lever thumb rest was actually pretty dang smart? I would wait until using it to judge it so heavily. Kai Wong, for instance, said it was actually pretty nice and he appreciated it being there.

Edited October 25, 2018 by Nick Bedford

[schattenundlicht]

46 minutes ago, Nick Bedford said:

What would happen if you used the M10-D and found out that the lever thumb rest was actually pretty dang smart? I would wait until use to judge it so heavily. Kai Wong, for instance, said it was actually pretty nice and he appreciated it being there.

Since I do own and use rather a lot of film bodies, I already know that I myself use the wind lever rather exclusively for, err, winding... But of course YMMV, and, fortunately, I am not forced to buy the M10 M-D  I will detach myself from the matter for the time being, because after all it is just another pricey lump of metal, plastic and silicone and it is not typical for me to get carried away like this

Edited October 25, 2018 by schattenundlicht

[UliWer]

Same idea: additional devices for thumbrest are only an „Ersatz“ for the missing lever in a posting from 2010:

 

[schattenundlicht]

52 minutes ago, scott kirkpatrick said:

I guess you don't have a drawerfull of IR-cut filters and goth black nail polish from the M8 days.  Or use a Thumbs-up holder.

That is true on all counts. I never was convinced by any of them

Edited October 25, 2018 by schattenundlicht

[Rus]

The main issue with the faux rewind lever, for me, isn’t that it functions as a thumb rest, but that it could have been much more than that. 

 

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[Dr No]

8 hours ago, SMAL said:

I only shoot raw. So white balance is a non issue and can be changed in post non destructively. 

This all changes when you shoot only or mainly jpeg and own only uncoded lenses. I only own one uncoded lens and that‘s a Summicron-M 50/2 rigid, which barely needs lens correction.

As you see, for some this camera could be suited really well and for some (like you) it’s maybe better to stick with a M10 or M10-P.

I only shoot raw too and its not the case depends on many things. Nearly always left traces of cross curves when not applying correct white balance and when adjusting big changes in post, small changes are ok. Auto white balance rarely works consistently or and is hindered by blockings of colour in clothing, wall colour ect.. Same for lens coding correction but also inconvenience of lost metadata and important for some peoples workflow and archiving. Leica is now happy it is not backwards compatible any more? Design muddiness for sentiment is not congruent with Das Wesentliche or core design principles and objectives. It is sacrificing essentials for marketing or perhaps non successful product development. Fine for $100 Yashica Y35 not for $8000 Leica.

You might be surprised that I already realise it's not the camera for me but that does not mean I can not say why I will not buy it when I wanted to. Ending discussion with it's not the camera for you could be interpreted as condescending by some...