Leica S3

[albertknappmd]

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here it is...

https://leicarumors.com/2018/09/25/leica-s3-additional-information-full-technical-specifications.aspx/#more-54076

 

Albert                  

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The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[Jon Warwick]

full frame Sigma Foveon sensor with L mount... that's my holy grail. Nothing beats the color from a true-ish RGB sensor...

+1. I’m eager to see what Sigma could produce here and how this Foveon sensor could work with a Leica SL lens.

 

Based on past DP Merrills, the Foveon has a depth of colour tonality that I haven’t seen in a CMOS sensor.

 

My experience of the DP Merrill was there are limitations with Foveon sensor (eg, ISO performance in particular, and to a lesser extent, RAW developer software), but for some situations it could be a knock-out combo (landscapes? city scapes?), especially when paired with a market-leading SL lens.

 

There is micro-contrast ......and then there is the type of amazing 3D micro-contrast that exists with a Foveon sensor .....as I say, it’s like looking at a large format E6 slide on a light box, you feel like you are walking into a 3D scene.

 

Micro-contrast aside, the acuity and lack of Bayer “blur” makes Foveon an amazing technology if it can be refined .....

[xiaubauu2009]

+1. I’m eager to see what Sigma could produce here and how this Foveon sensor could work with a Leica SL lens.

 

Based on past DP Merrills, the Foveon has a depth of colour tonality that I haven’t seen in a CMOS sensor.

 

My experience of the DP Merrill was there are limitations with Foveon sensor (eg, ISO performance in particular, and to a lesser extent, RAW developer software), but for some situations it could be a knock-out combo (landscapes? city scapes?), especially when paired with a market-leading SL lens.

 

There is micro-contrast ......and then there is the type of amazing 3D micro-contrast that exists with a Foveon sensor .....as I say, it’s like looking at a large format E6 slide on a light box, you feel like you are walking into a 3D scene.

 

Micro-contrast aside, the acuity and lack of Bayer “blur” makes Foveon an amazing technology if it can be refined .....

 

 

I have recently stop shooting my GFX, Digital back in favor for the DP Quattros... They produce such pleasing files and so easy on post that it's usually a 3~5 steps adjustment in their Sigma Pro Photo software to get to about 90% done. And the color is just unmatched.

 

 

 

 

[alan.y]

I’ve recently gone back to shooting 6x7 slide film. Colors are pretty great too.

[xiaubauu2009]

+1. I’m eager to see what Sigma could produce here and how this Foveon sensor could work with a Leica SL lens.

 

Based on past DP Merrills, the Foveon has a depth of colour tonality that I haven’t seen in a CMOS sensor.

 

My experience of the DP Merrill was there are limitations with Foveon sensor (eg, ISO performance in particular, and to a lesser extent, RAW developer software), but for some situations it could be a knock-out combo (landscapes? city scapes?), especially when paired with a market-leading SL lens.

 

There is micro-contrast ......and then there is the type of amazing 3D micro-contrast that exists with a Foveon sensor .....as I say, it’s like looking at a large format E6 slide on a light box, you feel like you are walking into a 3D scene.

 

Micro-contrast aside, the acuity and lack of Bayer “blur” makes Foveon an amazing technology if it can be refined .....

 

What I really am hoping for is to use this on a Cambo Actus and some tech cam lens for stitching and PC work. This will be a true RGB digital back and since L mount is 20mm in flange distance, it will have a lot of wide angle opportunity.

[xiaubauu2009]

I’ve recently gone back to shooting 6x7 slide film. Colors are pretty great too.

 

The DR is just too little... I need at least 10stop... Velvia at best is a 5 stop proposition, and Provia is maybe 6?

[helged]

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I have recently stop shooting my GFX, Digital back in favor for the DP Quattros... They produce such pleasing files and so easy on post that it's usually a 3~5 steps adjustment in their Sigma Pro Photo software to get to about 90% done. And the color is just unmatched.

 

 

 

(Another set of) Lovely cityscapes! Which Quattro do you mostly use? An L-mount body with 16-bit, FF Foveon sensor would be something...

[xiaubauu2009]

(Another set of) Lovely cityscapes! Which Quattro do you mostly use? An L-mount body with 16-bit, FF Foveon sensor would be something...

 

 

I use DP0 and DP2 the most. I have recently added DP3 to complete the set. I don't think I will ever need DP1.

 

I also have the 3 DPs in Merrill,  but didn't use much of it....

 

I don't think Sigma's foveon will ever be more than 12~bit ish at best. But it is still better in some cases than Leica, Phase or GFX when it come to color, especially when the lighting is good.

Edited September 28, 2018 by xiaubauu2009

[Guest]

Can anyone confirm the price of the new S3

Neil

[MarkP]

Wh

 

Can anyone confirm the price of the new S3
Neil

Why does it matter? You'll be buying one regardless Neil :-)

[Guest]

Wh

 

Why does it matter? You'll be buying one regardless Neil :-)

of course..,..it would be rude not to

Neil

[Jeff S]

As I noted, the S007 was announced at an anticipated US price of $25,400. When it was eventually released, the price was $16,900 (partially offset by a reduction in the included warranty). The S3 won’t be here until next year, so I’ll wait til then to see.

 

Jeff

[albertknappmd]

Jeff is right.

Let us focus on the actual camera itself and the detailed specifications which I have yet to see.

Albert     

Edited September 29, 2018 by albertknappmd

[sincurves]

So... After a few days of contemplating the S3 news, what's your take on the future of the S-line? Specs are converging amongst several manufacturers and less relevant than other factors, imho. The chase for increased resolution also seems to have reached a point of diminishing returns - I think Leica got it right with the S3.

[ZHNL]

So... After a few days of contemplating the S3 news, what's your take on the future of the S-line? Specs are converging amongst several manufacturers and less relevant than other factors, imho. The chase for increased resolution also seems to have reached a point of diminishing returns - I think Leica got it right with the S3.

I think they got it right 10 years ago with S2 only if there is no AF motor and sensor corrosion issues that they are not willing to face it with courage.

[erlingmm]

Posted this in another forum, but the discussions are parallel:

 

Not sure how to approach this. I have been with the S system since the S2 via the S006 to now S007. I have gathered 6 lenses through the years, half used, half new. 2 CS. Stayed put through all the AF-problems, when a solution finally came, I sent in all my lenses for upgrade and paid a minimal fee. 

I have travelled the world with the system: New York, California, Karakoram Highway, Havana, Kenya, Faroe Islands, Northern Norway. I am actually extremely happy with the system. When I look through my photos, 8 out of 10 of my favourites are taken with the S. I own a Canon Pro-2000 printer, and have printed images up to 60*210 cm, again very happy.
What are in my opinion the strengths of the system?
- I do a lot of travel and hiking, and prefer the DSLR format over the digital back format
- I need a weather sealed system, as I often travel in rough climate, snow, rain. The battery is very strong, even in tough climates.
- I prefer an optical viewfinder. I have had the SL. EVF is for framing, with OVF you can nail the perfect smile at the exact moment.
- I have a Profoto system, and need leaf shutter sometimes. I have 2 CS lenses (70 and 120mm)
- For me, the S is ergonomically perfect. I note that some criticise Leica for using the same body over 10 years. Well, it works, so why change? Has P1 or Hasselblad fundamentally changed?
To sum up: The key is versatility.

Personally, I am very happy with the optics. I have not done scientific comparisons with other brands, I am just very happy with the results. My understanding is that most S lenses have apertures close to 2-2,5, much stronger than many competitors. They give a "Noctilux" feeling, at Medium Format, very delicate.

So, the S3 comes out, late, and at a high price. I guess it has the same "overpriced ratio" as most Leica products, be it FF or APS-C. But it is a lot of money. The new Fuji comes out as low priced, but the standard Hassy and P1 are still priced very high.

What are the new features of the S3, and how the they play out in my situation?
- 64 mpix. Quite optimal for handheld in my opinion, which is what I do most. Yes, I know it is possible to shoot 150 mpix handheld as P1 has demonstrated, but in realistic situations, I very much doubt how much you benefit from higher mpix handheld. If you do more tripod/studio type of photography, and need higher mpix, feel free to pay for it. I will not. But I will consider 64. See Ming's articles about shot discipline.
- S3 brags about ISO 50.000. Let's conservatively assume it is 2 stops better that the S007. For me, going from S006 to S007 was a great step in expanding the usage envelope for Medium Format. You need a certain shutter speed handheld, and it is more critical with MF than FF. S3 is another major step into using MF in demanding situations. This has value for me, and as far as I know it is the best ISO performance of any MF camera.
- 3 pictures per second? Fine, in some demanding situations, but I definitely don't need more.

24k Euros is a lot of money. If I can sell my S007 for 8k+, and get a good deal, the gap is closing in. I get a wider usage envelope, more mpix, in a body that I know and love, with all the features that I have listed above, that are important for me. I am not willing to give up any of these for 100 mpix.

So, yes, I will consider upgrading. But I would like to see RAW images from the new sensor first - can the difference justify an upgrade?

Edited September 29, 2018 by erlingmm

[AlanD]

Two stop improvement would be tremendous but I suspect that it will be similar performance per pixel but with 64MP (which at print means that you have gained performance) unless they switched to Sony.

 

A 100Mp sensor should have 2 stops of dynamic range ahead of the S 007 at base ISO. But Sony sensors tend to have superior dynamic range at low ISO compared to other vendors. No one knows if Fuji switched from Sony to another vendor when going from a three year old 24mp to 26mp but there is no improvement in dynamic range despite being BSI and there is a strong rumor that the 26MP sensor is a Samsung sensor.

 

IBIS on the Fuji gfx100 can also be tremendous in realizing handheld resolution gains.

[xiaubauu2009]

There's no detail spec on the S3 on the internet yet, but the Cambo China dealer told me that he handle and shot and play around with the RAW file of the S3 in Photokina 2018 (he's still there) and he commented that the RAW is quite good, better than the 007.... I don't know what that mean...

 

But he said he's not excited with the camera as it has been around for close to 10 years with very little change and not much tech advancement. It's definitely not as exciting as when they announce S2 back in the days. This feels like a sensor swap only. But it also means that Leica feels that the S strong suit is its ergonomics and body design, totally agree with them, and being now the only rugged weather sealed SLR design on the market, they do have a niche to fill.

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[erlingmm]

There's no detail spec on the S3 on the internet yet, but the Cambo China dealer told me that he handle and shot and play around with the RAW file of the S3 in Photokina 2018 (he's still there) and he commented that the RAW is quite good, better than the 007.... I don't know what that mean...

 

But he said he's not excited with the camera as it has been around for close to 10 years with very little change and not much tech advancement. It's definitely not as exciting as when they announce S2 back in the days. This feels like a sensor swap only. But it also means that Leica feels that the S strong suit is its ergonomics and body design, totally agree with them, and being now the only rugged weather sealed SLR design on the market, they do have a niche to fill.

 

 

Well. I know people who constantly upgrade their Phase Ones, just for more megapixels. What kind of updates/changes would excite you?

[darylgo]

Posted this in another forum, but the discussions are parallel:

 

Not sure how to approach this. I have been with the S system since the S2 via the S006 to now S007. I have gathered 6 lenses through the years, half used, half new. 2 CS. Stayed put through all the AF-problems, when a solution finally came, I sent in all my lenses for upgrade and paid a minimal fee. 

I have travelled the world with the system: New York, California, Karakoram Highway, Havana, Kenya, Faroe Islands, Northern Norway. I am actually extremely happy with the system. When I look through my photos, 8 out of 10 of my favourites are taken with the S. I own a Canon Pro-2000 printer, and have printed images up to 60*210 cm, again very happy.

What are in my opinion the strengths of the system?

- I do a lot of travel and hiking, and prefer the DSLR format over the digital back format

- I need a weather sealed system, as I often travel in rough climate, snow, rain. The battery is very strong, even in tough climates.

- I prefer an optical viewfinder. I have had the SL. EVF is for framing, with OVF you can nail the perfect smile at the exact moment.

- I have a Profoto system, and need leaf shutter sometimes. I have 2 CS lenses (70 and 120mm)

- For me, the S is ergonomically perfect. I note that some criticise Leica for using the same body over 10 years. Well, it works, so why change? Has P1 or Hasselblad fundamentally changed?

To sum up: The key is versatility.

 

Personally, I am very happy with the optics. I have not done scientific comparisons with other brands, I am just very happy with the results. My understanding is that most S lenses have apertures close to 2-2,5, much stronger than many competitors. They give a "Noctilux" feeling, at Medium Format, very delicate.

 

So, the S3 comes out, late, and at a high price. I guess it has the same "overpriced ratio" as most Leica products, be it FF or APS-C. But it is a lot of money. The new Fuji comes out as low priced, but the standard Hassy and P1 are still priced very high.

 

What are the new features of the S3, and how the they play out in my situation?

- 64 mpix. Quite optimal for handheld in my opinion, which is what I do most. Yes, I know it is possible to shoot 150 mpix handheld as P1 has demonstrated, but in realistic situations, I very much doubt how much you benefit from higher mpix handheld. If you do more tripod/studio type of photography, and need higher mpix, feel free to pay for it. I will not. But I will consider 64. See Ming's articles about shot discipline.

- S3 brags about ISO 50.000. Let's conservatively assume it is 2 stops better that the S007. For me, going from S006 to S007 was a great step in expanding the usage envelope for Medium Format. You need a certain shutter speed handheld, and it is more critical with MF than FF. S3 is another major step into using MF in demanding situations. This has value for me, and as far as I know it is the best ISO performance of any MF camera.

- 3 pictures per second? Fine, in some demanding situations, but I definitely don't need more.

 

24k Euros is a lot of money. If I can sell my S007 for 8k+, and get a good deal, the gap is closing in. I get a wider usage envelope, more mpix, in a body that I know and love, with all the features that I have listed above, that are important for me. I am not willing to give up any of these for 100 mpix.

 

So, yes, I will consider upgrading. But I would like to see RAW images from the new sensor first - can the difference justify an upgrade?

+1

 

Greater megapixels are a great temptation and giving in to this temptation I am testing a Nikon Z7 against my SL.  46 vs. 24 megapixels; surprisingly the SL outdid the Nikon except for center resolution mostly.   The major contributor was the Leica lens, but the pixels in the Leica were no slouch either.   Generalizing this to the S, the S3 with lower resolution as measured by MP should compete very well with Hasselblad and Phase.   Of course it goes beyond resolution, Leica controls both sensor/lens combination, Hasselblad and Phase don't make their own lenses.