Farewell to the 135 APO-Telyt-M

[MarkP]

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Are the reports of the death of this lens greatly exaggerated?

 

https://leicarumors.com/

 

Greatly.

[Peter Kilmister]

Quotes about death really ought to include this one from John Mortimer who wrote the Rumpole novels.

"I haven't kicked the bucket, I've just turned a little pail."

[LichtUndDunkelheit]

Are the reports of the death of this lens greatly exaggerated?

 

https://leicarumors.com/

 

Thats NOT how you would link the corresponding article.

 

While leicarumors has a lot less news than other rumor sites, its already no longer the top article anymore.

 

You need to link the article directly:

 

https://leicarumors.com/2018/05/08/update-the-leica-apo-telyt-m-135mm-f-3-4-lens-is-not-discontinued.aspx/

 

Which refutes:

 

https://leicarumors.com/2018/05/03/the-leica-apo-telyt-m-135mm-f-3-4-lens-is-discontinued.aspx/

[lct]

E. Puts' mistake (who will cast the first stone?) is less interesting than the fast Leica's clarification. Proof that the M system is still alive and not restricted to rangefinders contrary to some brainless expectations.  

[adan]

There is still an error in logic in the Leicarumors correction post. That conflates "still available though dealers" or "listed on Leica's website" with "whether a lens is discontinued or not."

 

The first Leica M lens I bought (in my current venture with the system) was a "new-in-box" 21mm Elmarit from a dealer - four years after the lens was discontinued and replaced with the ASPH version. (Got a good price on it too, at just barely above dealer cost, since it had been sitting on his shelf for that long.)

 

That occurs for two reasons: 1) Leica builds lenses in batches, because it is a lot more efficient for a small company to run off 2000 of the same lens at one time, than be jumping around and making a 35mm today and a 135 tomorrow and a 21 the next day. Both in grinding the lens elements and machining the metal parts, and in the assembly stage. Therefore, after a binge of making 135s, Leica may have 2000 in a storeroom ready to ship to dealers when ordered, and it may take a couple of years to use up that supply (except for the fastest sellers - 35 and 50 Summicrons). And 2) as with my 21, some dealers themselves may have "backstock" that sits on their own shelves for several years, especially if it is a slower seller (expensive exotics or extreme ends of the focal length range).

 

So long as a given product is still in the supply pipeline - whether or not it is still made - Leica is happy to promote it on the website, to help move their remaining stock and their dealers' remaining stock.

[bocaburger]

Mmmm - 24 Mpixels cropped by 1.5x (e.g. 90 cropped to 135) reduces a 4000 x 6000 picture to 2666 x 4000 pixels, which is 10.6 megapixels. M9 full-frame is 18 megapixels. But the M8 was 10 Mpixels, so that's certainly still "good enough" for many uses.

 

You have to remember that pixels fill a surface area, so you have to square² the linear cropping proportion to calculate the remaining pixels after a crop. 24/(1.5 x 1.5) = 24/2.25 = 10.668.

 

 

Cropping a 90 shot proportionally to a 135 FOV utilizes 2/3 of the former surface area (1/1.5=.67).  .67x24=16.  Not quite the 18mp of an M9 but close enough not to present a discernible loss in practical terms; but well above an M8...which as you said, is still quite adequate for most uses.  The real difference is in pixel size.  The M240's 24mp are set in the same area as the M9's 18mp, requiring that the M240's pixels be smaller each.  So a 18mp full-frame M9 file has that advantage over a 16/18mp crop from an M240 shot.  However, the significance of that is arguably objective.  Theorists and pixel peepers will have a different perception than someone merely looking for good print quality at reasonable enlargement and viewed from a reasonable distance.

[Michael Geschlecht]

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Cropping a 90 shot proportionally to a 135 FOV utilizes 2/3 of the former surface area (1/1.5=.67).  .67x24=16.  Not quite the 18mp of an M9 but close enough not to present a discernible loss in practical terms; but well above an M8...which as you said, is still quite adequate for most uses.  The real difference is in pixel size.  The M240's 24mp are set in the same area as the M9's 18mp, requiring that the M240's pixels be smaller each.  So a 18mp full-frame M9 file has that advantage over a 16/18mp crop from an M240 shot.  However, the significance of that is arguably objective.  Theorists and pixel peepers will have a different perception than someone merely looking for good print quality at reasonable enlargement and viewed from a reasonable distance.

 

Hello Bocaburger,

 

Actually, the math is a little different:

 

Using rounded numbers.

 

It is 2/3 of the width of the image & it is also 2/3 of the height of the image.

 

So that: if the image was 9 cm/inches X 6 cm/inches before = 54 square cm/inches in area.

 

It is now 6 cm/inches X 4 cm/inches  =  24 square cm/inches in area.

 

24/54 = 12/27 = 4/9 = 44% of the pixels.

 

24 Megapixels X .44 =  10.5 Megapixels.

 

As Andy wrote above.

 

Best Regards,

 

Michael

Edited May 11, 2018 by Michael Geschlecht

[adan]

bocaburger - you're a good guy, and I like your posts - but you do need to study a little geometry.

 

Compared to a 90mm lens, a 135 magnifies the world 1.5x in linear dimensions (not area), which is to say it photographs a region .6667 as wide AND .6667 as tall. You are cropping top and bottom as well as left and right to crop a 90 to a 135 field of view. The combined crops = .6667 x .6667 = or 44% of the area.

 

If you are actually cropping your 90mm pictures to get .67 of the area - you are cropping for about a 110mm lens, not a 135mm. Michael gave you same math I did - here is how it "looks."

 

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[UliWer]

There is still an error in logic in the Leicarumors correction post. That conflates "still available though dealers" or "listed on Leica's website" with "whether a lens is discontinued or not."

 

The first Leica M lens I bought (in my current venture with the system) was a "new-in-box" 21mm Elmarit from a dealer - four years after the lens was discontinued and replaced with the ASPH version. (Got a good price on it too, at just barely above dealer cost, since it had been sitting on his shelf for that long.)

 

That occurs for two reasons: 1) Leica builds lenses in batches, because it is a lot more efficient for a small company to run off 2000 of the same lens at one time, than be jumping around and making a 35mm today and a 135 tomorrow and a 21 the next day. Both in grinding the lens elements and machining the metal parts, and in the assembly stage. Therefore, after a binge of making 135s, Leica may have 2000 in a storeroom ready to ship to dealers when ordered, and it may take a couple of years to use up that supply (except for the fastest sellers - 35 and 50 Summicrons). And 2) as with my 21, some dealers themselves may have "backstock" that sits on their own shelves for several years, especially if it is a slower seller (expensive exotics or extreme ends of the focal length range).

 

So long as a given product is still in the supply pipeline - whether or not it is still made - Leica is happy to promote it on the website, to help move their remaining stock and their dealers' remaining stock.

 

 

You are right - but...

 

Leica Camera AG doesn't keep an own stock of their items anymore. This was ended with the R-System when they had quite a lot of cameras and lenses unsellable on stock and "gave them away" altogether to one special dealer in Germany for a price much lower than usual.  The financial reports from this time mentioned that large stocks costed too much and were bad in the balance sheet and they wanted to change this. Today it may be possible that some items rest longer at Wetzlar because there is some jam in delivery, but you won't find thousands of lenses or cameras in the attics of Wetzlar. So they forwarded their own stock to their dealers which makes more sense: as long as dealers have the items available they won't order them from Leica. So there is no reason to produce a new batch. If there are enough orders a new batch will be made - perhaps with some months waiting time, as long as the lens is not "discontinued". Batches today are much smaller than they were in earlier times, it would be more realistic to  assume they come in 50 or 100 examples than in four digit numbers. 

 

If one looks around, the Apo-Telyt seems to be available at many dealers. It even was available during the times when most lenses were unavailable after the M9 came to the market: demand was much higher than their producing capacity, which caused long waiting lists and a black market for some lenses (e.g. 50mm Summilux). So the demand for the Apo-Telyt seems to be low; it has had the lowest price increase of all M-lenses during the last 10 or more years. This thread is a proof for very low demand: I asked whether anyone was going to buy it or had bought it during the last years - no one said that he would or had. One may compare this reaction to other lenses like the 75mm Noctilux...

 

So it may be that Leica hasn't produced a single Apo-Telyt for years now and it will not be produced for some years ahead, and nevertheless the lens is easily available. If there is a certain new demand which cannot be fulfilled by the dealers' stock, Leica will decide, whether they will "continue" the lens. Today there is no need for such a decision.

 

One may look at some other lenses: the last list from December 2017 still has the "old" version of the 1:4/90mm Macro-Elmar with goggles (No. 11629), even when the new version (11670) which doesn't work with goggles but with the Macro-Adapter  is available for some years now: dealers still have plenty of the old 11629-version with googles, but I doubt that they still build this version at Wetzlar.  We'll see if the next list which may come in June still mentions the old version. The list from September 2016 still had the earlier version of the 35mm Summicron in silver chrome (11882), when the new version (silver alloy 11674) was already on the market. The next list from December 2016 didn't mention it anymore. Though one may find this version still at some dealers. As far as I remember there was no such delay in "discontinuation" for the 1:2,8/24mm Elmarit asph. It  suddenly disappeared in the list after the 24mm Summilux and the Elmar were introduced - no stock at dealers, no new production - it was just "discontinued".   Same for the 21mm Elmarits asph, when the 21mm Super-Elmar was introduced.

Edited May 11, 2018 by UliWer

[bocaburger]

Ah true.  I see that being a photographer not a mathematician is a disadvantage on a photo forum

[UliWer]

...the fast Leica's clarification. Proof that the M system is still alive and not restricted to rangefinders contrary to some brainless expectations.  

 

There could be an explanation much more simple: Leica's attention was brought to the rumors and they may have had some questions whether it was true. May be some dealers asked, or maybe other people...

 

In times of internet publishing any rumor without taking any responsibilty for truth, the readers have to ask themselves, if they are interested. 

[luigi bertolotti]

You are right - but...

 

….

So it may be that Leica hasn't produced a single Apo-Telyt for years now and it will not be produced for some years ahead, and nevertheless the lens is easily available. If there is a certain new demand which cannot be fulfilled by the dealers' stock, Leica will decide, whether they will "continue" the lens. Today there is no need for such a decision.

 

…..

I agree with this point : probably Leica has not DECIDED that they will not make any new batch of the lens, and is sure that there ARE items in dealers' stocks : they surely keep track of the items effectively sold to users, and of the items in their "sparse" warehouse : which are those figures ? which is the TREND ?  n1 items in the last 3 months, n2 in the previous 3, n3 in the pre-previuos 3 … now x in stocks… depending on those numbers, they will decide what to do… : it can be that some insider, personally  related to Puts,  has told him something like "in the last meeting, we have discussed that probably no more batches of the AT 135 will be made… also considering the to-be announcements…" …. and Puts was in a mood to  write something about on his blog... 

So some statements are indeed literally true : AT 135 is available, Leica has not discontinued it : whether or not they will manufacture a new batch of it, is another matter : as I wrote in a previous post, it's not an item for which a commercial initiative like the "last 100" (as they did for Nocti f1) is Worth.

[Jeff S]

As noted earlier, Puts never admitted any error in his ‘discontinued’ post. He merely posted the Leica response, and then deleted all. So it may well be that the lens is not being made, and may not in the future. One often doesn’t know with Leica. Transparent communications, updated roadmaps, etc, are not their strong suit. And change of direction wouldn’t be a first. Whatever will be...

 

Jeff

[lct]

[...] AT 135 is available, Leica has not discontinued it : whether or not they will manufacture a new batch of it, is another matter [...]

+1

[Paul J]

The M is clearly going through a stage of redefining what it is.

 

The rumour may have just started if the 135mm was being questioned by the Product Management team.

 

If 135 isn't selling as much, then they are right to question it. But that doesn't mean it isn't viable and necessary for some though and I'm glad it hasn't been discontinued.

 

Wether a rumour leak was intended or not to gauge response, they sure got a reaction that brought a swift announcement.

 

It's nice to know they are listening to concerns of customers.

Edited May 12, 2018 by Paul J

[Gobert]

This morning I’ve bought one. You never know if the rumor becomes true after all......

[MarkP]

I was just thinking how many people went out to buy one after reading this thread.

Great strategy by Leica to boost lens sales ;-)

 

 

Great lens BTW :-)

Edited May 12, 2018 by MarkP

[jaapv]

Mine is still in the buy and sell...

[MarkP]

But yours is not NEW...

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[Gobert]

I was just thinking how many people went out to buy one after reading this thread.Great strategy by Leica to boost lens sales ;-)Great lens BTW :-)

Mine was a coincidence, an opportunity I could not ignore.

The biggest barrier was Mrs Gobert. It’s her money as well....

Edited May 12, 2018 by Gobert