With the advent of the CL, is the T line destined to extinction?

[lct]

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Plenty of good people around me, especially ladies, would never use a black ugly thing like the CL but would not mind to chimp with a polished by hand Leica TL2. Just kidding but there is certainly a niche for a sans EVF TL3. How large is that niche i don't know though.

[Guest VVJ]

Guys, the door is very similar to the X-series doors (and Panasonic ones for that matter.) How many broken doors have been reported on this forum over the years? Zero AFAIK. Impressions cannot replace facts.

 

Part of the image of Leica is based upon build quality, therefor I am not surprised that so many people complain about the battery door...  I personally don't like it either although I have to say the one on the Q has never given me any trouble... 

[ropo54]

I don't worry so much about individual lines of products. If I like something, I buy it and use it. If it is good, it keeps being used; if an update comes along that motivates me to buy it, the original sits on the shelf and I use the updated product. If I don't use it, or if something comes along that causes me not to use it, it sits on the shelf and something else replaces it. I eventually sell it. What do I care then whether the manufacturer continues the line? 

 

I never bought a T/TL/TL2. I was very interested at the first introduction but when I handled it, it lacked a couple of things that would motivate me to spend the money. I stuck with the M9, then M-P 240, and then M-D 262. I'm pretty much done there for the present. 

 

The CL is interesting to me for the couple of things I do that I need a TTL viewing camera. It might be a better pick for me than the SL, which I currently own, because it will do those things as well as I need and is smaller, lighter, simpler in the bargain. To get one would cost me the price of a body, I don't need any lenses and I have the mount adapter; I'd sell the SL and its 24-90, I suspect, and net a $5000 return to my bank account (or something like that). I haven't decided yet, I need to see and handle the CL in person. Perhaps next week. 

 

What manufacturers do for products and their profitability rarely affects me, nor do I care much about it—That's their business, not mine. I just buy what I think will work for my photography, and use it if it does. 

 

I would imagine selling the SL and 24-90 will bring you more than $5K.  

 

IMO, the CL is a tad small if you are wanting to use it regularly with SL lenses, or larger sized lenses. 

 

I thought the T was really nicely built and designed, so I want it to succeed; that's why I care.  But, from my perspective, it needs improvements in performance to compete. Hopefully 'if they build it, they (the buyers) will come'. Or, 'they' will come back to it!

Edited January 14, 2018 by ropo54

[oldwino]

I like my TL2, now that they have it working correctly. It’s a very nice camera, unlike the not quite ready T in its original release form. I hated that camera, and sold it on pretty quickly.

 

What I would really love to see, and would buy, would be a pair of new X cameras, one with a fixed 18mm lens and the other with a fixed 35mm lens, and both with built in optical viewfinders with the autofocus point marked. Would be fun to use, and the batteries would last a long time!

[FlashGordonPhotography]

Guys, the door is very similar to the X-series doors (and Panasonic ones for that matter.) How many broken doors have been reported on this forum over the years? Zero AFAIK. Impressions cannot replace facts.

 

Well that's been shown to be wrong many times. Impressions are everything when you deal with emotional beings.

 

The door on the T/TL2 seems like a classy option and gets ooohhhs and aaahhhs from your friends when your justifying your camera purchase. The door of the CL makes the rest of this $3000 camera feel a bit cheap. A bit like a Panasonic......

 

You like the door because you have a GX8. The rest of us with TL's and SL's and S's know how much better the pop battery system is and how it feels a bit more "luxury".

 

Gordon

[LocalHero1953]

I don't think so. Despite similar specifications, these are completely different products.

I disagree totally. IMO, despite being completely different products, they have similar specifications.

[scott kirkpatrick]

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You like the door because you have a GX8. The rest of us with TL's and SL's and S's know how much better the pop battery system is and how it feels a bit more "luxury".

 

Gordon

Well, I like the door because it permits me to get spare batteries for $75 (with "Leica" on them) or even $25.  I agree that the pop-down battery on my SL is cool, and probably better weather-sealed, but those batteries can cost $200, and they do the same job.

[earleygallery]

I think the T is a design cul-de-sac. Leica tried a new idea, a 'smartphone' interface camera and from what I see it failed to attract the type of customers that they were hoping to.

 

I don't think that it's without much thought that they chose a more conventional design for the CL. Where can they take the T design from here? I'm happy to be proven wrong of course.

[Starwolfy]

The more I use it the more I kove the T line and UI/UX.

The CL has its advantages...but in it current state...if I had to ditch my T I am really not sure I would got for a CL over a TL-2.

[ropo54]

Well, I like the door because it permits me to get spare batteries for $75 (with "Leica" on them) or even $25.  I agree that the pop-down battery on my SL is cool, and probably better weather-sealed, but those batteries can cost $200, and they do the same job.

 

The T line batteries are pop down, similar to the SL's, and they do not cost $200. More like $90, I believe.  A much sturdier option that the CL's door.

[Wojtek]

To make the TL-line relevant again Leica would IMO need to make the following changes:

• built-in EVF. 
• easier way to change focus points, perhaps (like Hasselblad on the X1D) introduce the capability to use the rear screen as a touch-pad to select AF point while viewing through the EVF, the so-called touch-pad AF.
• AF performance on par with the CL

Any attempt to launch a TL3 without these features will IMO fail miserably.

 

 

As much as I agree that TL is dead right now, in my opinion EVF is not a must. Many people would happily live without it. And I assume especially potential TL buyers (fashion bloggers, people looking for looks over specs etc) don't care about EVF. I can't think of any other camera except smartphones where the percentage of buyers not caring about an EVF would be higher. People don't use VFs anymore. Only photographers do. But the same people who don't use VFs use AF. And that's where Leica killed the TL in my opinion (of course they can fix it via software update, but for now - TL is useless at I argued in a previous post) 

 

Adding an EVF could kill the form factor. The only advantage TL has.

Edited January 15, 2018 by Wojtek

[jaapv]

Well that's been shown to be wrong many times. Impressions are everything when you deal with emotional beings.

 

The door on the T/TL2 seems like a classy option and gets ooohhhs and aaahhhs from your friends when your justifying your camera purchase. The door of the CL makes the rest of this $3000 camera feel a bit cheap. A bit like a Panasonic......

 

You like the door because you have a GX8. The rest of us with TL's and SL's and S's know how much better the pop battery system is and how it feels a bit more "luxury".

 

Gordon

I don't specifically like the door. In fact I like the M bottom plate better. But I am not bothered by it either.

[Ozytripper]

The market will determine the long term viability of the T series

Perhaps the "Availability" thread has given an indication of the demand for the TL2 vs CL 

[Guest VVJ]

The market will determine the long term viability of the T series

Perhaps the "Availability" thread has given an indication of the demand for the TL2 vs CL 

 

I think the market has already done that... According to my dealer the pre-orders for the CL dwarfed the pre-orders for the TL2 by a factor 8.  

[jaapv]

I'm not surprised. I cancelled my T pre-order as soon as I saw the camera.

[Guest VVJ]

As much as I agree that TL is dead right now, in my opinion EVF is not a must. Many people would happily live without it. And I assume especially potential TL buyers (fashion bloggers, people looking for looks over specs etc) don't care about EVF. I can't think of any other camera except smartphones where the percentage of buyers not caring about an EVF would be higher. People don't use VFs anymore. Only photographers do. But the same people who don't use VFs use AF. And that's where Leica killed the TL in my opinion (of course they can fix it via software update, but for now - TL is useless at I argued in a previous post) 

 

Adding an EVF could kill the form factor. The only advantage TL has.

 

You are too negative I feel about the TL-line. 

 

About the potential buyers, my impression was that the camera mostly (if not almost exclusively) got bought by photographers (most of them wanting a built-in EVF)...  I personally never believed that non-photographers massively would step up from their smartphones and pay $2-3K for a lens on a smartphone like device.

 

About the AF of the TL2, that was a bit of a shock to me.  I could understand the (in the meanwhile improved) AF of the T but after the Q and the SL there really was no excuse anymore for releasing a camera with subpar AF...

 

I would still like to understand how it is possible that the TL2 does not have good AF whereas the CL that came 4 months later does.

 

Hopefully the AF of the TL2 (and perhaps also the much criticized AF of the SL-50mm) did teach Leica that in the year 2017 people are not taking that anymore, not even from Leica.  

 

In the same way I hope Leica will soon realize that people are also not taking the total absence of any form of image stabilization anymore... 

Edited January 15, 2018 by JorisV

[ropo54]

As much as I agree that TL is dead right now, in my opinion EVF is not a must. Many people would happily live without it. And I assume especially potential TL buyers (fashion bloggers, people looking for looks over specs etc) don't care about EVF. I can't think of any other camera except smartphones where the percentage of buyers not caring about an EVF would be higher. People don't use VFs anymore. Only photographers do. But the same people who don't use VFs use AF. And that's where Leica killed the TL in my opinion (of course they can fix it via software update, but for now - TL is useless at I argued in a previous post) 

 

Adding an EVF could kill the form factor. The only advantage TL has.

 

I am confident that the designers could come up with a beautiful design incorporating an EVF.  They worked it out on the CL, they can figure it out for the TL.

 

The T line cannot be used in sunlight without the EVF so IMO it is an absolute necessity.

[graphlex]

Unlike the CL’s EVF, the Viso 020 could be upgraded, in theory.

[Ozytripper]

I think the market has already done that... According to my dealer the pre-orders for the CL dwarfed the pre-orders for the TL2 by a factor 8.  

Exactly my point.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica L-Mount

[scott kirkpatrick]

The T line batteries are pop down, similar to the SL's, and they do not cost $200. More like $90, I believe.  A much sturdier option that the CL's door.

You're right!  B&H lists them.  But then where do you put the SD chip?  That would drive you back to the side entry for the chip (or chips) and the USB and HDMI cables (wouldn't mind having those!) , which must have been part of the design until quite late, as the material sent to the Leica USA dealers still mentions them (and B&H advertised it when I checked a few days ago).  And putting a side entry on the right hand side would probably move the T-style battery back to the left, where it might not have left enough room for the viewfinder. 

 

This sort of chain of compromises and conflicts is what product design is all about.  There's a Robert Sheckley story, "Milk Run" about a beat-up space freighter carrying a cargo of Smags, Firgels, and Queels, that captures it nicely.  What could go wrong?

 

scott