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With the advent of the CL, is the T line destined to extinction?


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#1 ropo54

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Posted 14 January 2018 - 14:02

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With the advent of the CL, is the T line destined to extinction?  

 

(This is not so much a knock on the T but rather an acknowledgement that the built in EVF and the fast AF on the CL makes it a more appealing choice, even if I personally prefer the build quality and stunning looks of the T line).

 

Cross-posted in the TL forum.

 

Rob


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#2 jaapv

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Posted 14 January 2018 - 14:09

I don't think so. Despite similar specifications, these are completely different products.


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#3 bencychin

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Posted 14 January 2018 - 14:24

With the advent of the CL, is the T line destined to extinction?  
 
(This is not so much a knock on the T but rather an acknowledgement that the built in EVF and the fast AF on the CL makes it a more appealing choice, even if I personally prefer the build quality and stunning looks of the T line).
 
Cross-posted in the TL forum.
 
Rob


Personally i identify with your observation and preferences of CL for its EVF and faster AF (relative to my experience withTL, but dunno about TL2). But I do wish Leica could improve the CL battery door as it is clumsy to operate compared to the TL style.
The clean line and minimalist form factor of TL line is artistic, very pleasing to me.

So I sold my TL camera but kept the TL lenses for my CL.
I do not believe i would buy a TL3 - without EVF.

Just my view of things as it is at this point in time.
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#4 ropo54

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Posted 14 January 2018 - 14:26

I don't think so. Despite similar specifications, these are completely different products.

 

So many T users have abandoned it for the CL. Is there a large enough market to sustain it. Inasmuch as both lines were recently released, did Leica err in not having equivalent performance for the T?  

 

Does Leica need to improve the AF speed for the T to compete?

 

Does Leica need to develop a better EVF for the T to survive?


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#5 ropo54

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Posted 14 January 2018 - 14:30

Personally i identify with your observation and preferences of CL for its EVF and faster AF (relative to my experience withTL, but dunno about TL2). But I do wish Leica could improve the CL battery door as it is clumsy to operate compared to the TL style.
The clean line and minimalist form factor of TL line is artistic, very pleasing to me.

So I sold my TL camera but kept the TL lenses for my CL.
I do not believe i would buy a TL3 - without EVF.

Just my view of things as it is at this point in time.

 

Agreed: Yes, the CL door is a bit fragile, so it seems. 

 

Agreed: I would not buy a TL3 without a better EVF and would prefer it to be built-in (and faster AF).

 

It seems that with the performance differences between the TL2 and CL that Leica's development plans were internally incongruous, for if they were destined to compete would they not need to have had similar AF speed? And, they essentially arrived in the marketplace arround the same time


Edited by ropo54, 14 January 2018 - 14:45.

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#6 Learner

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Posted 14 January 2018 - 14:56

Rob... An interesting thread.

 

I agree with your choice of word: "incongruous". I can think of other words!

 

Might the relatively lower price of the TL2 save it?

 

And then there was the folly of releasing the TL2 with faulty FW whereby the camera and VISO failed to communicate. Cant help but wonder if a head rolled.

 

And then there's the folly of the CL's battery door. Oops, I've strayed off-topic.

 

======

 

There is, of course, a great deal that Leica does perfectly.

 

(Cross-posted to TL/TL2 forum)


Edited by Learner, 14 January 2018 - 15:11.


#7 ropo54

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Posted 14 January 2018 - 15:05

Rob... An interesting thread.

 

I agree with your choice of word: "incongruous". I can think of other words!

 

Might the lower price of the TL2 save it?

 

And then there was the folly of releasing the TL2 with faulty FW whereby the camera and VISO failed to communicate. Cant help but wonder if a head rolled.

 

And then there's the folly of the CL's battery door.

 

======

 

Of course there is a great deal that Leica does perfectly.

 

Really, as I see it there is a $250 price differential when one factors in the cost of the visoflex.  (A necessity for outdoors in sunlight). So, imo, price is not really a factor in the decision of choice.

 

Rob


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#8 Learner

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Posted 14 January 2018 - 15:13

Yes Rob you're right... I forgot to add the cost of the VISO.


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#9 Wojtek

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Posted 14 January 2018 - 15:43

I see TL2 and CL as very similar products

  • Same mount
  • Same size
  • Same matrix
  • Same processor
  • Similar price
  • Same specs, same electronics inside! 

Differences:

  • CL has faster AF (no idea why)
  • CL has more traditional and faster handling
  • CL has built-in EVF
  • CL is uglier for some

For me CL looks like the same camera, but better and different looking. 

I see some reasons for TL2 owners to switch (one being that they camera was abandoned and AF will continue to disappoint), but I see no real world reason to change from CL to TL2. Even if one could get all the Leicas for free - there's no reason to prefer TL2 other than "it suits my today's outfit better" or rather "it suits my today's outfit better and I'm not going to take any important pictures today, so AF doesn't matter that much" (person who shoots MF will take CL). I sincerely think this is the only reason. 

 

There's also no reason to own both CL + TL2 as a combo. CL + CL wins any time.

 

I could see what Leica was trying to do - create one model for fashion bloggers and one for photographers. Two brothers. One modern, one classic. Same camera, different look and handling. But because of AF they're not the same*. CL is simply a better one for basically the same price.

 

Btw. I don't see a point to make TL2 better than CL in any way. But I also think it's a mistake to -probably artificially- do the opposite (via software update or lack of one).

 

* - I really think it boils down to AF performance. Besides that only difference between them is looks and handling. 


Edited by Wojtek, 14 January 2018 - 15:46.

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#10 thighslapper

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Posted 14 January 2018 - 16:09

I've had the T and TL2 and they are both very good cameras.

 

I really liked the TL touch interface and simplicity of use ...... but I always used it with the Visoflex which made it an awkward shape to put in a bag and a nuisance to take on and off.

 

The CL menus and interface are not as good ..... but the inbuilt and better quality EVF make it a better overall experience.

 

If I still had both I would pick up the CL 99% of the time as I am a diehard VF user and not an LCD zombie.

 

For others that like LCD composing and touch screen interface there will always be a market for the original TL concept. 


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#11 Belle123

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Posted 14 January 2018 - 16:15

For me, doesn’t matter if the T is no more in the future. Am still fond of mine, even though isn’t one of my better cameras(M,Q,X1D). I will hold onto it and use it until stops working. Something about it made it fun to shoot, and still does. Excellent images with M glass. The speed for me was of no consequence coming from a manual shooter perspective. Have not even upgraded to the TL2 because really didn’t see the need. And feel the same about the CL, as don’t want one. At today’s used T prices, I highly recommend. For those always jumping on the latest trend, the CL might not be long lived either. Is very expensive for what it is, just as the T was when was new. Think the cost of these secondary Leica products are its demise. The M will be around forever because is legendary, and also the Q will be long lived. But the rest, not so much.
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#12 rivi1969

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Posted 14 January 2018 - 16:23

Rob,

I guess your question also applies to the X line. Seems the X113 was the end of it, (no X Vario mark2) now with the CL I doubt there would be market for another X.
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#13 ropo54

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Posted 14 January 2018 - 16:25

For me, doesn’t matter if the T is no more in the future. Am still fond of mine, even though isn’t one of my better cameras(M,Q,X1D). I will hold onto it and use it until stops working. Something about it made it fun to shoot, and still does. Excellent images with M glass. The speed for me was of no consequence coming from a manual shooter perspective. Have not even upgraded to the TL2 because really didn’t see the need. And feel the same about the CL, as don’t want one. At today’s used T prices, I highly recommend. For those always jumping on the latest trend, the CL might not be long lived either. Is very expensive for what it is, just as the T was when was new. Think the cost of these secondary Leica products are its demise. The M will be around forever because is legendary, and also the Q will be long lived. But the rest, not so much.

 

Agree that the T is "fun to shoot" and is a bargain on the pre-owned market (but only because of the software updates which improved AF speed).  

But, the reception given to the CL has been very positive so I think it will be long-lived.


Edited by ropo54, 14 January 2018 - 16:30.

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#14 ropo54

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Posted 14 January 2018 - 16:29

Rob,

I guess your question also applies to the X line. Seems the X113 was the end of it, (no X Vario mark2) now with the CL I doubt there would be market for another X.

I suppose one could say the X Vario and X 113 lines "ended". Rather, I would suggest that they have been continued in the bodies of the T and CL line with the 18-56 and 23mm. (The CL just does it better than the TL, which makes little sense to me as they were essentially released simultaneously).


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#15 jaapv

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Posted 14 January 2018 - 16:48

Guys, the door is very similar to the X-series doors (and Panasonic ones for that matter.) How many broken doors have been reported on this forum over the years? Zero AFAIK. Impressions cannot replace facts.


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#16 scott kirkpatrick

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Posted 14 January 2018 - 16:53

I think this will be a more interesting discussion once Leica has had a chance to put through an upgrade to the TL2 firmware.  But still the Visoflex will slow things down for the TL2.  There are comments about how the two teams can't get things consistent -- but I suspect there is only one team doing current APS-C products.  Isn't Maike Harberts responsible for all such product offerings?

 

scott


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#17 ropo54

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Posted 14 January 2018 - 17:04

I think this will be a more interesting discussion once Leica has had a chance to put through an upgrade to the TL2 firmware.  But still the Visoflex will slow things down for the TL2.  There are comments about how the two teams can't get things consistent -- but I suspect there is only one team doing current APS-C products.  Isn't Maike Harberts responsible for all such product offerings?

 

scott

 

 I'd hope so, but with the introduction of both lines was so close in time it was surprising to me to see a dramatic difference in AF speed - one design team or not.  


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#18 ramarren

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Posted 14 January 2018 - 17:39

I don't worry so much about individual lines of products. If I like something, I buy it and use it. If it is good, it keeps being used; if an update comes along that motivates me to buy it, the original sits on the shelf and I use the updated product. If I don't use it, or if something comes along that causes me not to use it, it sits on the shelf and something else replaces it. I eventually sell it. What do I care then whether the manufacturer continues the line? 

 

I never bought a T/TL/TL2. I was very interested at the first introduction but when I handled it, it lacked a couple of things that would motivate me to spend the money. I stuck with the M9, then M-P 240, and then M-D 262. I'm pretty much done there for the present. 

 

The CL is interesting to me for the couple of things I do that I need a TTL viewing camera. It might be a better pick for me than the SL, which I currently own, because it will do those things as well as I need and is smaller, lighter, simpler in the bargain. To get one would cost me the price of a body, I don't need any lenses and I have the mount adapter; I'd sell the SL and its 24-90, I suspect, and net a $5000 return to my bank account (or something like that). I haven't decided yet, I need to see and handle the CL in person. Perhaps next week. 

 

What manufacturers do for products and their profitability rarely affects me, nor do I care much about it—That's their business, not mine. I just buy what I think will work for my photography, and use it if it does. 


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#19 JorisV

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Posted 14 January 2018 - 17:40

With the advent of the CL, is the T line destined to extinction?  

 

(This is not so much a knock on the T but rather an acknowledgement that the built in EVF and the fast AF on the CL makes it a more appealing choice, even if I personally prefer the build quality and stunning looks of the T line).

 

Cross-posted in the TL forum.

 

Rob

 

I am afraid so.  By not integrating an EVF in the TL2 and launching another model on the market with EVF and on top of that much better AF performance I believe Leica effectively killed the TL-line of cameras.

 

To make the TL-line relevant again Leica would IMO need to make the following changes:

  • built-in EVF. 
  • easier way to change focus points, perhaps (like Hasselblad on the X1D) introduce the capability to use the rear screen as a touch-pad to select AF point while viewing through the EVF, the so-called touch-pad AF.
  • AF performance on par with the CL

Any attempt to launch a TL3 without these features will IMO fail miserably.


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#20 JorisV

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Posted 14 January 2018 - 17:51

The clean line and minimalist form factor of TL line is artistic, very pleasing to me.

 

+1.  The CL is the more performant camera but for me the TL easily wins on looks, UI, tactical feel, excellent battery change mechanism of S/SL, in-camera battery charging, etc etc.


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