Bad news for the SL.

[Budfox]

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The Sony does look like a fantastic camera. Probably more a problem for Nikon and Sony than Lieca however. Leica are unlikely to ever sell in the same volumes as Sony, but their prices and lens expertise will keep them going (as long as there is a quality differential in lenses and service). And the migration to mirrorless caused by the Sony is likely to ultimately benefit Leica as long as they keep developing the SL format.

[thighslapper]

As far as I can see this camera only differs in the sensor .....Sonys new 'full-frame stacked CMOS sensor with integral memory', in camera OIS, and a tiltable screen from the SL. 

 

If you need ultra fast AF and want to take 20fps or use big manual telephotos and still have OIS then I suppose it's attractive, but otherwise the SL does virtually everything else.

 

I'm not aware that Sony has anything that matches the 2 superb SL zooms ...... or whether it will handle M series wides ok. 

 

From my experience mixing camera systems brings some benefits and some drawbacks - so unless something really exceptional appears I will stick with Leica plus the odd 3rd party lens.

 

There is a persistent quest for the holy grail ..... the camera that does everything for everyone in a small package with infinite battery life ...... Leica's horizon seems to be more limited and realistic. 

 

If I change again it will be a complete defection to another manufacturer - but I'm not really sure I need 'better' equipment ..... unless it comes with in-built compositional skills, persistence and an artistic eye to remedy what I really lack...... 

Edited May 8, 2017 by thighslapper

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[almoore]

I'm not aware that Sony has anything that matches the 2 superb SL zooms .......

The A9 doesn't interest me, but the Sony lenses range from very good to excellent.

 

The zooms are on a level with those from Canon/Nikon and that means they're good enough. The fixed focal length Zeiss Loxia and Batis lenses are pretty much as good as their Leica equivalents, as are the Sony/Zeiss branded 35mm and 50/55mm offerings. They're also relatively affordable.

[SrMi]

The A9 doesn't interest me, but the Sony lenses range from very good to excellent.

 

The zooms are on a level with those from Canon/Nikon and that means they're good enough. The fixed focal length Zeiss Loxia and Batis lenses are pretty much as good as their Leica equivalents, as are the Sony/Zeiss branded 35mm and 50/55mm offerings. They're also relatively affordable.

Regarding zooms, IMO ...

 

My Sony lens collection ranges from mediocre (24-70/f4) to excellent (35mm and 55mm). Having and using both systems I do not think any of my Sony zooms (24-70/f2.8, 70-200/f4) match the quality of 24-90 or 90-280 SL zooms. I believe SL zooms are also better than any of my Nikon zooms, so much that I'd rather pick SL than D810 for landscape photography.

 

What is good enough is subjective. I agree that Sony zooms are good enough to make great photographs.

[geetee1972]

I still shudder at the memory of the 12 months I spent shooting a Sony A7rII. The warranty support, or rather the utter and contemptible lack thereof, left such a sour and bitter taste in my mouth that I won't ever again buy a Sony camera.

[proenca]

I still shudder at the memory of the 12 months I spent shooting a Sony A7rII. The warranty support, or rather the utter and contemptible lack thereof, left such a sour and bitter taste in my mouth that I won't ever again buy a Sony camera.

 

I have to agree to this.

 

I also spent about a year and ish with a A7rII :fantastic sensor, great resolution and the happiest moment was when I sold it : the menu system is dreadfull and was designed by a hyperactive 4 year old while listening to tecno music and drinking redbull , the fact that I have good Leica lenses ( 28lux, 50 lux asph, etc ) that arent even decent on the Sony (alas, Sony did not have to optimize its sensor to rangefinder lenses of course ), the body seem that would be falling apart every time I would touch it ( not that never did ) , etc etc. makes me never want to buy a Sony in the forseable future, while I remember all this.

 

Lets be straight about one thing : Leica lenses range from great to stupendously good. But even on Leica "top tier" lenses, that are lenses that are at least matched by other manufacturers. Leica 50 lux'es in M/R/SL form ? get an Otus. 90 cron asph ? Get a Batis . Leica WATE ? Get a Nikon 12-24. And so on. There are equivalents for a lot less money - that are at least as good.

 

Construction quality - where Leica really excels vs competition - does NOT interfere with image quality. My WATE feels like a solid brick vs Zeiss 18mm, however, its not the fact that Zeiss albeit good, because it feels a bit "flimsy" vs the Leica, takes lesser pictures.

 

Emotion takes a huge part on our picture taking as hobby - if not, what would be the rationale for buying Leica ? almost none. I buy it because I admire the quality and the results I have - and in turn, wants me to use the gear and get out there shooting. Sure, other brands can achieve similar results, sometimes even better - but I have zero interest in that. 

 

So do I get upset, that the A9 is coming out ? No. That even Sony will release the A9RII with 40 or 50 mp ? even at the same price ? Not really.

 

At least for me.

 

Taking pictures, for me,  its a journey. I want to bring along a camera, a set of lenses which I respect, admire, feel tactile, are sometimes not perfect but have lots of character ( alas, bit like me I guess )  and wants me to be better, to push foward as a better photographer.

 

 Not something that its the better value, better sharpness, better mega pixels, better iso.

 

I want to have fun, to learn and portrait the world I live in.

 

That is way I shoot with Leica's.

[wildlightphoto]

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I still shudder at the memory of the 12 months I spent shooting a Sony A7rII. The warranty support, or rather the utter and contemptible lack thereof, left such a sour and bitter taste in my mouth that I won't ever again buy a Sony camera.

 

 

I still shudder at the memory of Leica waiting 8 months and having to be prodded by my dealer to tell me they don't have parts for my 280 APO then returning it with a smashed rear cap (insult, injury, etc.).  Leica will never see another cent from me.

[jaapv]

As far as I can see this camera only differs in the sensor .....Sonys new 'full-frame stacked CMOS sensor with integral memory', in camera OIS, and a tiltable screen from the SL. 

 

If you need ultra fast AF and want to take 20fps or use big manual telephotos and still have OIS then I suppose it's attractive, but otherwise the SL does virtually everything else.

 

I'm not aware that Sony has anything that matches the 2 superb SL zooms ...... or whether it will handle M series wides ok. 

 

From my experience mixing camera systems brings some benefits and some drawbacks - so unless something really exceptional appears I will stick with Leica plus the odd 3rd party lens.

 

There is a persistent quest for the holy grail ..... the camera that does everything for everyone in a small package with infinite battery life ...... Leica's horizon seems to be more limited and realistic. 

 

If I change again it will be a complete defection to another manufacturer - but I'm not really sure I need 'better' equipment ..... unless it comes with in-built compositional skills, persistence and an artistic eye to remedy what I really lack...... 

It is not really a question of "better" equipment. Nowadays all major brands deliver a level of image quality that will satisfy even the most fastidious photographer.

The only thing that matters really is the affinity of the photographer with the system, which inludes ergonomics, menu systems, lens rendering, etc.

[mgrayson3]

I still shudder at the memory of Leica waiting 8 months and having to be prodded by my dealer to tell me they don't have parts for my 280 APO then returning it with a smashed rear cap (insult, injury, etc.). Leica will never see another cent from me.

We all have brands we won't touch again due to a horror story. I had to return 3 out of 4 of Sony's (expensive) zooms. Says a lot about their QC. Cambo took months to return my lens in worse shape than when I sent it in. Schneider got it back to almost good.

 

Leica hasn't burned me yet. I'm sorry they did so poorly by you.

 

Best,

 

Matt

Edited May 9, 2017 by mgrayson3

[Martin B]

I also spent about a year and ish with a A7rII :fantastic sensor, great resolution and the happiest moment was when I sold it : the menu system is dreadfull and was designed by a hyperactive 4 year old while listening to tecno music and drinking redbull , the fact that I have good Leica lenses ( 28lux, 50 lux asph, etc ) that arent even decent on the Sony (alas, Sony did not have to optimize its sensor to rangefinder lenses of course ), the body seem that would be falling apart every time I would touch it ( not that never did ) , etc etc. makes me never want to buy a Sony in the forseable future, while I remember all this.

 

It all comes down to personal preference and kind of usage in photography, but I had to laugh about this paragraph because it is - sorry to say this - a quite ridiculous statement. The Sony menu takes simply time to get used to - I agree it is not the best organized one, but give it two weeks of time, and you can work with it well. Some Leica M lenses work better than others on the Sony A7 sensors - my rule of thumb is to stay away from ASPH M-based lenses. I am using all my M-lenses very well on my A7R - this includes CV 12/5.6, CV 21/1.8, CV 35/1.2 II, Leica 35/2 (version IV), Leica 50/2 (version V), and Leica 90/2.9 (version I). Body falling apart??? C'on, I am using my A7R now since nearly 3 years, no mark on it, rigid and well built, and survived several rainy/wet situations without issue. 

Edited May 9, 2017 by Martin B

[jaapv]

Well, in my Sony experience one does have to reglue the rubber covering from time to time, but for the rest they seem to be well-built.

[ramarren]

It all comes down to personal preference and kind of usage in photography, but I had to laugh about this paragraph because it is - sorry to say this - a quite ridiculous statement. The Sony menu takes simply time to get used to - I agree it is not the best organized one, but give it two weeks of time, and you can work with it well. Some Leica M lenses work better than others on the Sony A7 sensors - my rule of thumb is to stay away from ASPH M-based lenses. I am using all my M-lenses very well on my A7R - this includes CV 12/5.6, CV 21/1.8, CV 35/1.2 II, Leica 35/2 (version IV), Leica 50/2 (version V), and Leica 90/2.9 (version I). Body falling apart??? C'on, I am using my A7R now since nearly 3 years, no mark on it, rigid and well built, and survived several rainy/wet situations without issue. 

 

 

I fitted a Summilux-R 50mm to the Sony A7 and fitted it to a tripod. It felt funny so I pulled out my dial indicator set and took some measurements. Just that ... the weight of a modest 50mm lens on the front, warped the body by 2.2 mm. I bought the ASTAT-NEX (tripod mount adapter for the Novoflex mount adapter) to solve this problem.  

 

When I got the SL, I did the same test with the SL24-90 as I was a little concerned about its weight hanging on the tripod. Maximum deflection of the body is 0.03 mm. 

 

I'll never buy another Sony. 

[Joshua Lowe]

The "stacked" term that's being thrown about means the sensor has a layer of RAM that is used for fast readout, e-shutter, etc?  

[proenca]

It all comes down to personal preference and kind of usage in photography, but I had to laugh about this paragraph because it is - sorry to say this - a quite ridiculous statement. The Sony menu takes simply time to get used to - I agree it is not the best organized one, but give it two weeks of time, and you can work with it well. Some Leica M lenses work better than others on the Sony A7 sensors - my rule of thumb is to stay away from ASPH M-based lenses. I am using all my M-lenses very well on my A7R - this includes CV 12/5.6, CV 21/1.8, CV 35/1.2 II, Leica 35/2 (version IV), Leica 50/2 (version V), and Leica 90/2.9 (version I). Body falling apart??? C'on, I am using my A7R now since nearly 3 years, no mark on it, rigid and well built, and survived several rainy/wet situations without issue. 

 

 

Well if you had a laugh, that is already ok in my book  

 

Also, I said what I said, in a hyperbole way : over exaggerating of course. 

 

HOWEVER

 

I hated the Sony menu's. I did not give it two weeks. I gave it one year.

 

Still after one year, I wasn't exactly 100% sure where to find things. It bears no logic whatsoever with me, and I've owned and used quite a few cameras and brands : Canon 1D, 1Ds, 1DsII, 1DsIII, 1DmkII, Nikon D1x, D1h, D2x, D2h, D3, Fuji S2Pro Fuji S5pro, Kodak 14dcs, Leica S2, Leica M8, M9, MD ( well this one does not count for menu Organization eheheh ) , Sony A7R, A7RII. Of all these, I found the Sony to be unbearable to be honest. 

 

Perhaps perfect for most people but I could not get the hang of it, at all. Even pro Nikon or Canon bodies, which have deep menus, I understand their logic. 

 

Also, my A7RII never broke or felt apart - but I never found much confidence in its build quality, seems that would break any moment now. Not that it did, but seems on the verge of self destruction.

 

Again, as I said, pretty much every manufacturer has body and lens that will please most photographers today. I'm not saying that Leica is the best there is.

 

It is for me.

 

And well, since I'm the one paying my bills, its my opinion that matters

[almoore]

It all comes down to personal preference and kind of usage in photography, but I had to laugh about this paragraph because it is - sorry to say this - a quite ridiculous statement. The Sony menu takes simply time to get used to...Body falling apart??? C'on, I am using my A7R now since nearly 3 years, no mark on it, rigid and well built, and survived several rainy/wet situations without issue.

Yes, I find the Sonys well built for the price and very reliable. They have their quirks and frustrations, but so do Leicas, in abundance.

[Musotographer]

After 18 months I can still find neither rhyme nor reason to my A7II's menus, but I now have it set up so that I virtually never need to use them, except for delete, and I've taught myself how to access that quickly. The sensor has jammed a couple of times, but I've worked out what to do if that happens again - otherwise I quite enjoy using it (esp when I reflect that it cost me £800!), and the results from 50+mm and R lenses are very good. Focusing using f magnification is often faster than RF on my M9P, though of course I prefer using that camera.

[wildlightphoto]

After 18 months I can still find neither rhyme nor reason to my A7II's menus, but I now have it set up so that I virtually never need to use them, except for delete, and I've taught myself how to access that quickly. The sensor has jammed a couple of times, but I've worked out what to do if that happens again - otherwise I quite enjoy using it (esp when I reflect that it cost me £800!), and the results from 50+mm and R lenses are very good. Focusing using f magnification is often faster than RF on my M9P, though of course I prefer using that camera.

 

 

After setting up the custom function buttons my demands of the Sony menus are few but since I regard these cameras as near-disposable digital backs for my R (and other) lenses I'll forgive a lot of foibles.  They have numerous features and functions that I'll never use because I want little more than viewfinder, shutter and means of determining exposure; as such I'm not often faced with the daunting task of finding my way through the menus.  Clearly a YMMV opinion.

 

The SL is in another class of cameras entirely and as such I expect a lot more of it.  It's darned near perfect for my uses but the few shortcomings outweigh my expectations for a non-disposable camera.  And then there's Leica's "service"....

[steppenw0lf]

For me too the SL is a "non-disposable" camera. I intend to keep it 3-5 years before I have the budget to replace it by a new one.

For many Sony users probably unthinkable to keep an old model when a successor has been announced.

(The A9 is a new series, so not necessarily replacing a certain existing model).

 

Where I live "Nachhaltigkeit" = sustainability is getting more and more awareness.

So when I keep this in mind (and the budget) any new camera which is not REALLY a BIG STEP forward, is simply uninteresting.

Sony product cycles are not consistent with sustainability, so Sony will probably never be one of my favorite suppliers.

 

The short product cycles enable Sony to sell a lot of gear - at a much higher rate than CaNikon. I wonder why nobody notices that and sees that Sony's disposable products are a problem. Sooner or later photographers should see that their budget is getting bigger when using Sony and that they are producing a lot of waste. Imagine the heap of cameras after 30 years of photography. 

 

Ever seen that sustainability is a topic in foto forums or magazines ? No, but isn't it strange ? Many are looking for untouched nature and beautiful places, but are using cameras that cause a lot of waste. 

Edited May 10, 2017 by steppenw0lf

[helged]

 

The SL is in another class of cameras entirely and as such I expect a lot more of it.  It's darned near perfect for my uses but the few shortcomings outweigh my expectations for a non-disposable camera.  And then there's Leica's "service"....

 

 

I am very sorry to hear about your experience with the Leica service. I have been complaining myself, but experiences over the last years have been (very) positive. It's hard to know whats going on on the grand scale, but my impression is that Leica has upscaled their service. I see, however, several complaints from people routing their gear through Leica NY, so there seems to be some bottlenecks still. But certainly, quick and efficient service should be the rule for any serious company.

 

I have learned a lot from your contributions to this forum, in particular your many posts addressing the 280mm f4 APO. Your 'near perfect' comments regarding the SL are well known - also by Leica I would think - so let's hope that SL version 2 will address these! And I do hope to see forthcoming contributions from you!

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica L-Mount

[ramarren]

For me too the SL is a "non-disposable" camera. I intend to keep it  ... 

 

Personally, I stop right there. I've already had my SL for over a year and a half, and I'm FAR from done with it. I hope to still use it in 2025 and beyond. I really, really don't want to buy any more cameras.