M 11 will be around in less than 4 years. The speculations and facts.

[PeterGA]

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5 hours ago, Paulus said:

I really believe, that in al the years I had Leica M's the bottomplate was never an issue, always a challenge in a good way and always a unique way of opening the camera. The bottomplate hides IMHO the ugly-ness of a little door, in a nearby perfectly closed camera. Al it needs is a little effort and practice. Just like making a picture.  

Please keep it this way Leica. 

I've been 'practising' for 20 years my friend !. I agree with you no side doors ..all I am suggesting is that a battery ala the setup on my SL and perhaps a little flip up something for SD card(s)  on the bottom  - no need for the flimsy bottom plate covering the whole of the bottom of camera anymore is there? Less is more in good design - always.

[Paulus]

vor 5 Stunden schrieb SMAL:

The thing is, it is really impractical, cause you can’t leave a quick release plate on it, since you have to unscrew it for every battery or card change.

I love the design and asthetic of the bottom plate, but it sure is not the most practical design.

You are so right. So is my wife. She's impractical too on many occasions.

Still II see her beauty and uniqueness beyond compare. 

If wanted " practical " I believe I would have chose for Sony a long time ago. Because, lets admit it. Non autofocus, bottomplates and expensive viewfinders are so 1954-2018.  

 

[Paulus]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb PeterGA:

I've been 'practising' for 20 years my friend !. I agree with you no side doors ..all I am suggesting is that a battery ala the setup on my SL and perhaps a little flip up something for SD card(s)  on the bottom  - no need for the flimsy bottom plate covering the whole of the bottom of camera anymore is there? Less is more in good design - always.

I'm sorry if I have offended you in any way. I am not used to being called " my friend! " by people I do not really know. It gives me the feeling somebody wants to be the opposite. Let's not make this personal please.

Staying on the subject, I would say: Why think in replacing bottom-plates by old-fashioned doors. If I want data out my Macbookpro-touchbar-laptop, I'm not going to unscrew the 6 screws in the bottom-plate. I just need a cable, or send the data through the air and in the proces recharge through the same port. 

 

[PeterGA]

1 hour ago, Paulus said:

I'm sorry if I have offended you in any way. I am not used to being called " my friend! " by people I do not really know. It gives me the feeling somebody wants to be the opposite. Let's not make this personal please.

Staying on the subject, I would say: Why think in replacing bottom-plates by old-fashioned doors. If I want data out my Macbookpro-touchbar-laptop, I'm not going to unscrew the 6 screws in the bottom-plate. I just need a cable, or send the data through the air and in the proces recharge through the same port. 

 

When you say "all it needs is a little effort and practise - you are making an assumption and a statement to the effect " I don't care to put in effort and I don't have practise "  as IF I am not entitled to my opinion? - yes indeed let us not get personal.

[SMAL]

vor 6 Stunden schrieb pico:

Just a note from the citizens of the WayBack era: We did well with the base-plate when we had at best 36 exposures. People with SD cards with giga exposures who complain  should take a deep breath and consider how we did so well. You can just suck it up.

 

I know you are probably 80ish years old, but I can assure you, evolution is not the devil. 

When one wants to cover a wedding with two M10s where the Battery life isn’t the best, you’ll have to change it quick depending on the time of the day.

Look, back when you were young there were also no seatbelts in cars, but that doesn’t mean they are bad invention. 

[SMAL]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb Paulus:

You are so right. So is my wife. She's impractical too on many occasions.

Still II see her beauty and uniqueness beyond compare. 

If wanted " practical " I believe I would have chose for Sony a long time ago. Because, lets admit it. Non autofocus, bottomplates and expensive viewfinders are so 1954-2018.  

 

Nope, you miss the point by far. I want to use a Leica. I also want to use Leicas so much, that I think about replacing my Sonys with them for events, but then your run into a few issues. For weddings you need to able to change the batteries and ad cards fast and I (!!) would like to carry two M10s on a dual camera harness, which I can’t with the bottom plate, cause I would have to unscrew the harness all the time. Luigi has a solution for this.

[lct]

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On 10/6/2018 at 4:45 PM, NDOC said:

The optical viewfinder is an anachronism. There's every reason to go with a high resolution EVF and zero reasons not to. Today's EVFs are superior in every way that matters for nailing the shot with every click of the shutter.

I would not hold my breath. According to Leica quoted by Macfilos (http://tinyurl.com/y9v7oxe6), « the M would always remain a rangefinder » which is the « central ethos » of the M. As for the hybrid finder, « it would not be possible to incorporate such a device into the M without altering the classic dimensions ». A « second M » with an EVF in place of the RF has not been ruled out though.  

Edited October 19, 2018 by lct

[Paulus]

vor 3 Stunden schrieb SMAL:

Nope, you miss the point by far. I want to use a Leica. I also want to use Leicas so much, that I think about replacing my Sonys with them for events, but then your run into a few issues. For weddings you need to able to change the batteries and ad cards fast and I (!!) would like to carry two M10s on a dual camera harness, which I can’t with the bottom plate, cause I would have to unscrew the harness all the time. Luigi has a solution for this.

 

How many pictures do you take in an hour on a wedding? 

So take the Luigi solution or drop the harness, if you have to go to the toilet, you have to unscrew al those things anyway I suppose...? Why blame it on Leica's bottom-plate? What's the chance of missing "the moment", with two M 10 cameras? One can prepare for such an occasion, or take an M 240 as second camera good for 800 frames in 8 hours, than you can divide you " pits-stop-speed changing of battery and sd card. 

If I had to change the Battery-pack of a Nikon D,3,4,5 , I would  have similar issues with that if I had to change it so often, comparing to the bottom-plate of the Leica I think. 

 

[Paulus]

vor 4 Stunden schrieb PeterGA:

When you say "all it needs is a little effort and practise - you are making an assumption and a statement to the effect " I don't care to put in effort and I don't have practise "  as IF I am not entitled to my opinion? - yes indeed let us not get personal.

Of cause you can detest your bottom-plates for 20 years of trying to make it work and still failing to.  My assumption, that practice makes perfect might be wrong.

[SMAL]

vor 16 Minuten schrieb Paulus:

 

How many pictures do you take in an hour on a wedding? 

So take the Luigi solution or drop the harness, if you have to go to the toilet, you have to unscrew al those things anyway I suppose...? Why blame it on Leica's bottom-plate? What's the chance of missing "the moment", with two M 10 cameras? One can prepare for such an occasion, or take an M 240 as second camera good for 800 frames in 8 hours, than you can divide you " pits-stop-speed changing of battery and sd card. 

If I had to change the Battery-pack of a Nikon D,3,4,5 , I would  have similar issues with that if I had to change it so often, comparing to the bottom-plate of the Leica I think. 

 

Roughly 250 per camera per hour. Since the M10 has no second card slot I’d probably shoot on smaller cards and change more often. 

You can simply hang the harness anywhere without detaching anything. 

I don’t blame anything. I only share my opinion. I bought the M10 with full intention and knew every „flaw“ beforehand. I love this camera, but see things that could be better in the future.

[Paulus]

vor 3 Minuten schrieb SMAL:

Roughly 250 per camera per hour. Since the M10 has no second card slot I’d probably shoot on smaller cards and change more often. 

 

Why? Are nyou afraid of loosing all your captures when something goes wrong with the sd card? 

[SMAL]

vor einer Stunde schrieb Paulus:

Why? Are nyou afraid of loosing all your captures when something goes wrong with the sd card? 

Correct. With dual card slots I have an instant backup. 

[PeterGA]

4 hours ago, Paulus said:

Of cause you can detest your bottom-plates for 20 years of trying to make it work and still failing to.  My assumption, that practice makes perfect might be wrong.

Congratulations - you have a perfect relationship with your bottom plate and correct I have an imperfect relationship with my bottom plate - perhaps Leica could make two versions of the next M - one for bottom plate fetishists like you and another for those who would prefer no bottom plate - like me.

[Paulus]

vor 29 Minuten schrieb PeterGA:

Congratulations - you have a perfect relationship with your bottom plate and correct I have an imperfect relationship with my bottom plate - perhaps Leica could make two versions of the next M - one for bottom plate fetishists like you and another for those who would prefer no bottom plate - like me.

That would be a nice compromis.😊 On the other hand, as long as Luigi provides an alternative for this why should they? I don't think Leica would put the battery entrance and sd cart slot in another part of the camera and I would not expect that Leica would make the outside appearance of the M 11 body really different from the M10 body.

Leica designers have done substantial research and listened to their costumers , also on this forum. I don't see it happen in the M 11 ..The IMHO obvious reason: They would have already done it with the M 10 if they really wanted. 

[IkarusJohn]

I’m not sure that is entirely right, Paulus.  A more accurate assessment is that Leica does listen to its customers, to a point - ultimately, Leica is quite stubborn that they know best (see LNER, video and similar discussions).

To me, the critical point is that the M10 is highly refined.  Everything about the camera seems to have been debated and viewed from the perspective of improving and simplifying 4 things - focus, ISO, aperture and shutter speed.  Even the accessibility of each has been designed according to its importance - ISO is available, but not the easiest to do with the camera to your eye, shutter speed is automatic, or adjustable with your right forefinger and aperture and focus (the most important adjustments from the Leica gestalt) is by your left forefinger, on the barrel of the lens.

There is no functional purpose to the baseplate.  Everything else has been refined, but the baseplate is a pretense, harking back to the film days.  Leica has already shown that it has an excellent solution with the click out battery on the SL, TL & CL(?), and it has a little door on the SL which maintains weather sealilng.

The M11 could have a card slot (2?) behind the door, with USB-C for uploading/downloading/in camera charging and also connections for off camera flash ...  So, there are good reasons to ditch the baseplate, in my view. - I guess the biggest reason for getting rid of it is that the tripod screw goes through into the chassis of the camera. So, set up your shot, level the tripod, weight the tripod and get everything ready, complete with WiFi connection to your cell phone, and then find that the battery is low, or SD card full and the light is changing ...

You might not find this an issue, but I’m curious what you gain by the removable baseplate, and would lose with a click-out battery and easy access to your SD card ...

Edited October 19, 2018 by IkarusJohn

[PeterGA]

3 hours ago, Paulus said:

That would be a nice compromis.😊 On the other hand, as long as Luigi provides an alternative for this why should they? I don't think Leica would put the battery entrance and sd cart slot in another part of the camera and I would not expect that Leica would make the outside appearance of the M 11 body really different from the M10 body.

Leica designers have done substantial research and listened to their costumers , also on this forum. I don't see it happen in the M 11 ..The IMHO obvious reason: They would have already done it with the M 10 if they really wanted. 

Yes there is no satisfying every preference all the time - the Leica M is close to perfection in my mind as it is. Technically ( for a rangefinder focus ) system we are where we are. Leica is producing other bodies and lenses for those who need to add autofocus/evf /dual card slots etc etc...however the camera and its lens system are so good- that people ( justifiably) use it for professional purposes and unfortunately battery drain and lack of dual card slots is an understandable question.

Just as in SL - limited lighting options for studio work is a bugbear.

atb

Pete

[pico]

13 hours ago, SMAL said:

I know you are probably 80ish years old, but I can assure you, evolution is not the devil.

Just how does my age relate to  'the devil', evolution and what that might imply?
Do you believe you have evolved in our microscopic time-slice of human evolution more than I?

Edited October 19, 2018 by pico

[Paulus]

vor 10 Stunden schrieb IkarusJohn:

I’m not sure that is entirely right, Paulus.  A more accurate assessment is that Leica does listen to its customers, to a point - ultimately, Leica is quite stubborn that they know best (see LNER, video and similar discussions).

To me, the critical point is that the M10 is highly refined.  Everything about the camera seems to have been debated and viewed from the perspective of improving and simplifying 4 things - focus, ISO, aperture and shutter speed.  Even the accessibility of each has been designed according to its importance - ISO is available, but not the easiest to do with the camera to your eye, shutter speed is automatic, or adjustable with your right forefinger and aperture and focus (the most important adjustments from the Leica gestalt) is by your left forefinger, on the barrel of the lens.

There is no functional purpose to the baseplate.  Everything else has been refined, but the baseplate is a pretense, harking back to the film days.  Leica has already shown that it has an excellent solution with the click out battery on the SL, TL & CL(?), and it has a little door on the SL which maintains weather sealilng.

The M11 could have a card slot (2?) behind the door, with USB-C for uploading/downloading/in camera charging and also connections for off camera flash ...  So, there are good reasons to ditch the baseplate, in my view. - I guess the biggest reason for getting rid of it is that the tripod screw goes through into the chassis of the camera. So, set up your shot, level the tripod, weight the tripod and get everything ready, complete with WiFi connection to your cell phone, and then find that the battery is low, or SD card full and the light is changing ...

You might not find this an issue, but I’m curious what you gain by the removable baseplate, and would lose with a click-out battery and easy access to your SD card ...

I'm not gaining anything by the removable baseplate. I know the comfort of easy access with my Nikon D3 . The Leica is different:  It is there and I have always accepted it with the Leica M.

I think, for me, that things keep the same is part of my , partly conservative way of thinking. I see no harm in looking and talking about an alternative and surely, your arguments have a real point.

If the alternative of dual card slots and a little door are really better I would also welcome it. If the camera would appear more ugly or less "smooth" I wouldn't want that. I really do believe in good preparation. Having a drained battery the moment you start working, is a possibility but my question is, how much one has to redesign in a camera to rule out al stupid mistakes.  

If I compare it to something more dangerously: In cave-diving and wreck-diving especially in the North Sea, one of the most challenging sees of the world.

The last 30 years one could see the development  of equipement. There were two tendencies. One was, to make the equipement more complex and technical. The other one was, going back to the basic and only use what was really required:

The complex and technical devices, made it possible, to think less, to plan less and have a comfortable time. Only downpart was, that people died sometimes just because they did not now what they were doing because of all their "comfortable" equipment. I experienced the death of some,  diving with highly complex gear, just because they left the thinking to a bunch of bad designed computers and oxygen-meters, which were the top of the bill in those times. 

In these more commanding disciplines the equipment " evolved " in 30 year to a base equipement, that looked , although there were lots of different divers and agencies, practically the same. 

The thought behind it al was: You can prevent mistakes by planning and thinking ahead and practice a lot. You can get out of problems before they get worse by really analyzing  what a problem can be, before it will happen and would it  happen , you will be prepared and not in a panic, dying in the process. If you like to read about it:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doing_It_Right_(scuba_diving)

also in equipement the K.I.S.S. is important. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KISS_principle

In the airplane industry things also developed, because of this principle, which were adapted by divers also:

https://www.thehumandiver.com/p/microclass

There is an analogy if you want to see it: "Most accidents and adverse events in diving are not down to undetected technical failures, but rather a breakdown in communication, poor decision-making or a lack of situational awareness, or more likely a chain of events which are based around these human factors. "

just replace the words diving by photography... 

 

Now back to the baseplate: It's steady, simple smooth, looks nice and will not fail. It has proven its strengt over the years. It has no spring, that will break eventually and has no way to open unintentionally. You can open it in every weather type ( we even have tried it at minus 50 degrees Celsius ) with gloves on.  You have to know how to handle it. 

About two slots in a camera? I don't' know anymore. It seemed like a good idea to me, when somebody violently wanted to destroy your film-roll or sd cart because you photographed something they did not wanted and still have a spare, but I really ask myself how many times this will happen? Especially with people carrying a Leica.  There must be statistics who write about this? 

 

About batteries: I still can remember the discussions when the Nikon F3 , The Leica M7 etc. appeared. The sheer thought of being dependable of a battery was pure heresy. One was forgetting maybe, that the were only 36-37 frames in a roll, but that was accepted because there was no alternative. 

Now the situation is reverse. We have bigger cards than batteries. I'm glad to live the day!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 20, 2018 by Paulus

[SMAL]

On 10/20/2018 at 12:55 AM, pico said:

Just how does my age relate to  'the devil', evolution and what that might imply?
Do you believe you have evolved in our microscopic time-slice of human evolution more than I?

It seems like as if you fear the new and in technology 10 years are an eternity.

Edited November 28, 2018 by jaapv
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Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[IkarusJohn]

Agreed, to a point.

If I may take you diving one step further, in paragliding we rely on checks and simplicity. If it doesn’t justify its existence, it gets eliminated. While the baseplate may have elegance for you, it is pointless for me. The click in battery for the L mount cameras have proven their effectiveness (for me), as has the connection door.

Not sure that means an increase in size or form.

Edited October 20, 2018 by IkarusJohn