M 11 will be around in less than 4 years. The speculations and facts.

[jaapv]

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Even better - they should replace the shutter by a lens cap on the M11-D.

[lct]

The "C" (cambrian) version could have a pinhole instead

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[rosuna]

The key difference of the M11 should be the global electronic shutter (by Panasonic). 

Global electronic shutters and advanced software based on AI is the reason mobile phones make those gorgeous pictures. They combine several photos for wider range, and clearer pictures, even when you don't touch "HDR" option. 

It is not a question of noise, but a question of getting a set of pictures the camera combines for the final photo. Very short exposure times are possible. 

 

[jaapv]

Doesn't the camera need fast video to do so?

[willeica]

4 hours ago, rosuna said:

The key difference of the M11 should be the global electronic shutter (by Panasonic). 

Global electronic shutters and advanced software based on AI is the reason mobile phones make those gorgeous pictures. They combine several photos for wider range, and clearer pictures, even when you don't touch "HDR" option. 

It is not a question of noise, but a question of getting a set of pictures the camera combines for the final photo. Very short exposure times are possible. 

 

The beginnings of computational photography for Leicas may come before the M11. In Wetzlar in October, Stefan Daniel told us that Leica was watching such developments.  Huawei phones with Leica lenses already have elements of this. As a traditional photographer myself, I hope that when such features come to mainstream cameras they will be available at the option of the photographer.

William

[lct]

The Pixii should have a global shutter sensor like the AMS CMV12000 (link) if ever it is launched that is. It would be an APS sensor though.
https://ams.com/cmv12000

 

[rosuna]

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On 12/19/2018 at 4:47 PM, lct said:

The Pixii should have a global shutter sensor like the AMS CMV12000 (link) if ever it is launched that is. It would be an APS sensor though.
https://ams.com/cmv12000

 

Panasonic is ready to launch full frame cameras with global shutters... 

[asiafish]

I actually upgraded from the M Monochrom (CCD) and M-D (Typ 262) to the M10 and less than a year later, downgraded back.  The thinner body that everyone raves about was always a non-issue as my first Leica was the M Monochrom and a millimeter or three in either direction really doesn't bother me.  The new sensor is better than that of the M-D or M240, but not enough better to make much difference to me and my 11X14" maximum printing size.  The new rangefinder was really the only "upgrade" that I noticed in any meaningful ways and even that, while nice, only marginally improved my hit rate for accurate focusing.

There were negatives too.  The M-D has much faster start up and wake-from-sleep times, and lasts almost twice as long on a battery.  More importantly I really prefer the ISO dial on the rear of the camera to the fiddly pop-up one on the M10.  Don't get me wrong, the M10's physical dial is a real improvement over the dial-less M9 and M240, but the M-D really nailed it.  Even the new M10-D disappoints in that regard, but I understand why they did it that way.  Given the choice, I'd have made the dial on the left side of the body into exposure compensation and retained the original M-D's glorious ISO dial on the back.

I've also still yet to find anything with as pleasing a file as the CCD M Monochrom.  The M246 is certainly its equal, but I think there is more processing of the DNG in the camera as the file starts out with higher contrast.  I love starting from that flat gray file of the original Monochrom and honestly the only image quality differences I can see are about another stop of high-ISO (irrelevant with ISO 6400 as clean as it is on the original MM) and the extra 6 megapixels, which again at the sizes I print is just wasted ones and zeroes on my hard drives.

I think I'll stay off the upgrade hamster wheel for a few generations at least.  I've even been downgrading my lenses as I've found I greatly prefer the look from most vintage glass over modern.  Sure, I've kept one biting-sharp fast and modern 35mm (Zeiss 35/1.4 Distagon ZM) and one almost modern 50mm (Leica 50/2 Summicron v5), but the rest of my collection all dates from 1970 all the way back to 1937.

So what I wish for the M11 is that they sell a boat load of them to keep Leica flush with money so that hopefully that do more of their classic lens reissues.  I'm saving my pennies for that 28/5.6 Summaron and would love a brand-new 28/2.8 Elmarit v2 (but please change filter size from unavailable 48mm to the very common 46mm or 49mm) and a nice, new 50/2 Summitar in M mount or Rigid Summicron v1.

[rosuna]

17 hours ago, asiafish said:

So what I wish for the M11 is that they sell a boat load of them to keep Leica flush with money so that hopefully that do more of their classic lens reissues.  I'm saving my pennies for that 28/5.6 Summaron and would love a brand-new 28/2.8 Elmarit v2 (but please change filter size from unavailable 48mm to the very common 46mm or 49mm) and a nice, new 50/2 Summitar in M mount or Rigid Summicron v1.

The camera and sport optics business are not going well for Leica. 

http://photo.imx.nl//blog/files/14e3919d9b557bfa39cf07a603873fa1-119.html

I do not have the numbers, but the SL and S systems are probably doing worse than expected. The M and CL/TL systems maybe better?

The S was a problem. A ton of money was buried in it. How much of that has been recovered? 

The SL system has been subsidized to Panasonic. It is not clear how this will affect the investment/sales equation for Leica, but to reduce the investment seems to be the motivation in this movement.

Then we have the M system, underdeveloped because it is not seen as an unique system (supersmall, full frame system), but specifically tied to rangefinder cameras. Leica should look at different alternatives for expanding the system: a CL-like camera, zooms like the tri-elmars... 

The TL/CL is in the range of mobile phones. It is a travel/vacation camera, and it competes against camera phones. Global shutters and dust cleaner are needed, and more rational prices... 

Leica has two important asian allies: Panasonic, for hardware; and Huawei for software. 

I am not too optimistic about the medium or long term... because the model of "luxury electronics" has limits and technology and habits move so fast... 

[jaapv]

Erwin is well known for not liking Leica's top management. Those figures were the fiscal year that closed in April 2017. They tell us nothing about the last 20 months...

BTW, I'm sure that turnover of the SL is considerably down even more by now. That camera is on the downward slope of its sales curve. The M10 and Q as well in all likelyhood. CL and TL probably still near the top. Nothing to do with mobile phones BTW, as long as there are no 5000$ huge phones with interchangeable lenses on the market. Does anybody seriously think that Leica is unaware of such fluctuations?

 

As for the M system, that is a heritage system, developed to the boundaries of its niche. Any development beyond those boundaries could just as well shrink the niche. Look at the M10 - a success despite being stripped of features that sell other cameras.

In that sense, as a high-quality,  portable system (IQ comparable to full-frame - it leaves the argument to the geeks, not to the consumers- ) the CL  is the real competitor for the M. Even Leica marketing plays that card: "The camera Barnack could have designed" 🙄

[sebben]

The problem with the CL is that it’s not a special camera to use. The experience is no different to vastly cheaper systems that also do a better job than the CL.

The M has a unique shooting experience, that offers something that no other digital camera does. Hopefully there will always be a market for a camera primarily focused on photography not business. 

[jaapv]

I assume you never used a CL? I sold my M240, my M9 hasn't been used for months and my Monochrom is only used when I am in a B&W mood. My CL comes everywhere, something my Sony and Panasonic mirrorless cameras never managed.

[lct]

40 minutes ago, sebben said:

The problem with the CL is that it’s not a special camera to use. The experience is no different to vastly cheaper systems that also do a better job than the CL. [...]

Are you referring to the CL itself, TL lenses or both? I wanted a better mirrorless APS camera than my Fuji X-E2 to fit my M lenses and the digital CL was the easy winner aside from my M8.2. Some Zeiss, Fuji, Nikon or other third party lenses are probably comparable to the TL's i have no experience with but if you own M lenses already, the CL has no serious competitor besides full frame mirrorless cameras IMHO.

[jaapv]

And, according to Peter Karbe, the lenses even outperform the M series, which means that, combined with M lenses, you have a world-class system. What vastly cheaper system???

[Paulus]

Am 29.11.2018 um 19:41 schrieb LocalHero1953:

There are recognised problems with the electronic shutter, as there are with the mechanical one. But it adds silence which the M10-P does not, quiet thought it is. There are circumstances (concerts/recitals, some plays) when silence is absolutely necessary. As I said, now the CL and SL meet that need for me. For many people an electronic shutter adds nothing; for me it adds something valuable. 

I reread an article of Erwin Puts. Maybe we have to think about it, and maybe Leica has to think about it, when we want something new in the M11: http://photo.imx.nl//

people close to the fire said to me,  that the new Leica M 11 will not show itself in a while. Maybe because of this reasoning below? 

 

"It is safe to state that unless the pace of product introduction slows significantly one will not see much innovation in the world of photographic cameras. "

 

"It makes sense to question the global tend to product differentiation and short product cycle and to note the stifling of true innovation that is the necessary correlation of this strategy. It is therefore a bit unsettling to read that the management of Leica is contemplating to shorten its product cycles and to introduce more new products to keep pace with the competition."

"The peak performance of Leica may be compared to a pyramid: the top is very high, but sharply pointed: if you are on the peak all is well, but if you drop from the top, you slide down fast and steep. The other approach for performance is to settle for a lower height and use the shape of a tower: the top is wider and it takes a while before you approach the edge and fall off. If you go for a pyramidal type of performance, the strategy for frequent product changes and product introductions may be counterproductive.  
The French writer, Antoine de Saint-Exupery, wrote: "Perfection is finally attained not when there is no longer anything to add but when there is no longer anything to take away"

[dkmoore]

If a new camera is introduced every 6 months (a la Sony) then yes of course there is merit to the claim above.

However, Leica product cycle has been 4 years and we see quite significant changes in technology in 4 years. And to counter the above argument, technology is advancing more rapidly with every day that passes. And therefore, it is safe to assume that the technologies available today are further ahead if compared to the same time frame between cameras with M8/M9. I don't see them stretching the M11 launch further than 4 years. 

I could see the M11 being similar in design and function but be significantly lighter due to advancements in miniaturization for interior components. We will probably see a 36MP sensor with slightly better dynamic range. Another fantastic RF from Leica.

 

 

[Paulus]

I understand, that the sensor of the M 240 snd M10 differ slightly but that they are still 24 Mp. Would it be possible that the M 11 stays 24 Mp but that the quality of the sensor will be significantly better? 

Is the strive for 36Mp not just something we want to see, because others have it and not a goal in itself to improve the quality of the capture?

 

 

 

[pico]

Quote

Puts wrote: The peak performance of Leica may be compared to a pyramid: the top is very high, but sharply pointed: if you are on the peak all is well, but if you drop from the top, you slide down fast and steep. The other approach for performance is to settle for a lower height and use the shape of a tower: the top is wider and it takes a while before you approach the edge and fall off.

Oi! Puts needs a perspective control attitude.

[wlaidlaw]

7 hours ago, Paulus said:

I understand, that the sensor of the M 240 snd M10 differ slightly but that they are still 24 Mp. Would it be possible that the M 11 stays 24 Mp but that the quality of the sensor will be significantly better? 

Is the strive for 36Mp not just something we want to see, because others have it and not a goal in itself to improve the quality of the capture?

Paulus, 

Paulus,

I often need to look at the EXIF to tell which photo has been taken with my CL and which with my SL (I have now changed the prefix of the SL files to S and the CL to C to have a quick differentiator from my M240 files still set to L, without having to refer to the EXIF). The low light performance of the CL seems as good as a SL with no more chrominance noise at high ISO settings, which I hate. If you use the same pixel spacing as the CL but on a full frame sensor, that would actually result in a 54MP sensor, so going from 24 to 36MP is actually quite a modest increase. However I agree with you, if higher MP were to be at the expense of any other output factor, like noise or dynamic range, an increase in MP should come fairly far down the priority list. 

Wilson

 

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[dkmoore]

I as well agree that megapixel count for me isn't a big deal but I have absolutely no doubt that they could/will source a 36MP sensor that will have improved noise and dynamic range performance over the current sensors. 

Regardless if the M11 is 24 or 36 (or more) megapixels, the output will be improved over current state. It is just the nature of the sensor business (constant improvement).

That said, the M10 sensor is great so I am in no hurry for a new camera.