mikeamosau Posted January 9, 2019 Share #701 Posted January 9, 2019 Advertisement (gone after registration) 6 hours ago, Jeff S said: This report by a visitor to Wetzlar suggests that Leica is open to a second M line with EVF along with continuation and improvement to the current M line, based on the direction set with the M10.... https://photobasecamp.com/leica-factory-future-product-news/ Also included are hints at ideas being considered with the SL system as well as Leica customer service. Jeff Thanks for linking and the mention of the article Jeff. The presentations of course did not flatly say what was coming, but they were quite candid in discussing decision making and some plans and I’m happy people are finding the article and news just as interesting as I did. Overall I came away feeling that Leica was listening intently to what users are asking for and saying. I was especially pleased to hear about more of the customer service improvements being tested and put into practice. Thanks again, Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted January 9, 2019 Posted January 9, 2019 Hi mikeamosau, Take a look here M 11 will be around in less than 4 years. The speculations and facts.. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
setuporg Posted January 9, 2019 Share #702 Posted January 9, 2019 1 hour ago, Mark II said: Access to the lens system with a sensor optimised for them. A good EVF implementation allows off-centre focusing with no rangefinder or lens calibration misery. Think of it as a mini-SL or a full-frame CL with an M-series form-factor. There are currently no full-frame cameras on the market with these attributes. Alternatively Leica could (should!) fix the M’s external EVF design, which is incongruous with the camera and price point (blackout times, resolution, lack of hot-shoe lock, unreliable & slow auto-switching, etc etc). This is very reasonable, except it probably won't be an M, but rather a variation of SL/CL/TL or whatever else a new system will be called. But I get your point. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
calijax Posted January 9, 2019 Share #703 Posted January 9, 2019 7 hours ago, setuporg said: This is very reasonable, except it probably won't be an M, but rather a variation of SL/CL/TL or whatever else a new system will be called. But I get your point. I'm ok with that! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tailwagger Posted January 9, 2019 Share #704 Posted January 9, 2019 9 hours ago, setuporg said: This is very reasonable, except it probably won't be an M, but rather a variation of SL/CL/TL or whatever else a new system will be called. But I get your point. Given there have been hundreds of pages devoted to the topic in this forum, its well understood that some, maybe most, see the letter M as exclusively belonging to an RF design. While I get this point of view, its not one I hold, no matter how heretical it might be. While I appreciate the attributes of the RF, I'd would never have come to Leica... from Fuji among others... had it not been for the glass and rendering. I shot exclusively with the OVF for about a year after which I developed a hybrid technique which utilizes both. To my mind, M stands for the mount, not the method of focus, given Leica produced RFs for decades prior to the M designation. But either belief is really beside the point. For those who find EVF to be a useful tool and have a significant investment in M glass, having a small form factor minimalist EVF designed specifically to utilize our current set of optics is something quite logical, regardless of the model designation. 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted January 9, 2019 Share #705 Posted January 9, 2019 But the point is that the M mount is basically obsolete, in that it cannot support a modern system, which the hypothetical EVF-M is supposed to be. As it can easily be incorporated into the L mount with only minimal loss of function, it stands to reason that Leica will most likely choose the L-M adapter solution. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted January 9, 2019 Share #706 Posted January 9, 2019 The L mount has not been designed for M lenses and doesn't allow for auto image magnification. Just a compromise M users may accept or not. Don't ask me if i do . 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted January 9, 2019 Share #707 Posted January 9, 2019 Advertisement (gone after registration) Image magnification: an un-M like modernism in the same class as Video only part of M cameras since the M240, if you ask me. If Leica put their mind to it, they could probably incorporate it into an L-mount M clone to differentiate it from the CL/SL series. For instance by detecting contrast changes on the sensor like they feed the AF mechanism, circumventing the whole mount question. Imagine - image magnification comes in when the image is unsharp in the focusing patch, to jump back to full view as soon as you hit focus. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
setuporg Posted January 9, 2019 Share #708 Posted January 9, 2019 3 hours ago, jaapv said: But the point is that the M mount is basically obsolete, in that it cannot support a modern system, which the hypothetical EVF-M is supposed to be. As it can easily be incorporated into the L mount with only minimal loss of function, it stands to reason that Leica will most likely choose the L-M adapter solution. The M mount is eternal, and will be fine for all eternity -- there are great lenses in the hands of great folks here can take great photos with them. The bodies are fine for digital. 10 year old Leica bodies make amazing photos daily where Canons and Nikons of their age are long forgotten. Leica M is a modern system, if by "modern" you mean one that can take great photos in a small form factor and be enjoyable. Just as very modern Herr Oskar Barnack had intended. 5 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlaidlaw Posted January 9, 2019 Share #709 Posted January 9, 2019 3 hours ago, jaapv said: Image magnification: an un-M like modernism in the same class as Video only part of M cameras since the M240, if you ask me. If Leica put their mind to it, they could probably incorporate it into an L-mount M clone to differentiate it from the CL/SL series. For instance by detecting contrast changes on the sensor like they feed the AF mechanism, circumventing the whole mount question. Imagine - image magnification comes in when the image is unsharp in the focusing patch, to jump back to full view as soon as you hit focus. Image magnification with the VF-2 on my M240, was invaluable when setting up the RF cam on the 7Artisans 28/f1.4 lens I recently acquired, using a Nikon focus chart. Would have been a very long and tedious job without it. I just hope they manage to get a 4.2MP screen into a new EVF and don't just carry the M10's EVF forward. That would discourage me from an M11. Wilson 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted January 10, 2019 Share #710 Posted January 10, 2019 Just playing devil's advocate, Wilson ;). LCT's point was that only the M mount would offer automatic image magnification. My point is that the magnification is basically electronic, not provided by the mount but by a separate mechanism which might conceivably be replaced by a digital system. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ynp Posted January 10, 2019 Share #711 Posted January 10, 2019 On 1/9/2019 at 4:11 AM, Jeff S said: This report by a visitor to Wetzlar suggests that Leica is open to a second M line with EVF along with continuation and improvement to the current M line, based on the direction set with the M10.... https://photobasecamp.com/leica-factory-future-product-news/ Also included are hints at ideas being considered with the SL system as well as Leica customer service. Jeff Does it mean something like a LEICA IIIf with rangefinder and viewfinder windows together? I would love to have a new Digital Version of the IIIf. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlaidlaw Posted January 10, 2019 Share #712 Posted January 10, 2019 8 hours ago, jaapv said: Just playing devil's advocate, Wilson ;). LCT's point was that only the M mount would offer automatic image magnification. My point is that the magnification is basically electronic, not provided by the mount but by a separate mechanism which might conceivably be replaced by a digital system. Jaap, I would not think it too difficult to come with a simple mechanism on an improved M adapter L to detect focus ring movement. A finger sitting against the RF cam would do it. Then it is just a matter of the adapter sending a signal though its contacts to the camera body to initiate live view zoom for a selectable number of seconds. In effect the same mechanism that the M240 and M10 use at present for auto zoom. The problem is that if you do that using the L mount, in effect the M11 just becomes a different version of the SL. Wilson Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted January 10, 2019 Share #713 Posted January 10, 2019 That would also be an option. Yes, the M11_EVF would be just another EVF camera, irrespective of mount. Limiting it by using the M mount would severely reduce its appeal to the larger public, leaving a very small customer base - no sales to present-day technology oriented photographers, no sales to die-hard rangefinder users, just the small group of purists who struggle with the rangefinder. A niche within a nice. That would make it a very expensive camera, in the special edition range. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianman Posted January 10, 2019 Share #714 Posted January 10, 2019 (edited) 12 hours ago, setuporg said: The M mount is eternal, and will be fine for all eternity -- there are great lenses in the hands of great folks here can take great photos with them. The bodies are fine for digital. 10 year old Leica bodies make amazing photos daily where Canons and Nikons of their age are long forgotten. Leica M is a modern system, if by "modern" you mean one that can take great photos in a small form factor and be enjoyable. Just as very modern Herr Oskar Barnack had intended. Precisely. The problem is there are M users who complain about everything about it. Old RF, old mount, no built-in EVF, no (more) video, no bells, no whistles... and yet, they persist using the crap camera. I don't get this. Sometimes the response is "Well, I invested so much in glass". So instead of doing what most people would, and just buy a different model/brand, they just complain and insist on destroying a perfectly good tool. A better external add-on EVF.... fine, a seperate model with built-in EVF complete with video, GPS, WIFI, Bluetooth, Lightroom, coffee maker... great, and call it the "M" if you must... just don't kill the real camera. Edited January 10, 2019 by ianman 1 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted January 10, 2019 Share #715 Posted January 10, 2019 A compact SL would compete against the SL folks. We'll see that when pigs can fly. Instead a compact EVF camera with M mount would not compete vs rangefinders, just extend the benefit of M lenses to people wishing to use the latters w/o being bothered by an optical rangefinder. And no need to buy an hypothetical adapter with bells and whistles that Leica would have made for SL, TL and/or CL bodies if this were feasible at reasonable cost. As for M users wishing to use monstrous autofocus lenses on a manual compact body, i would not call this a niche, rather a pigeonhole if you ask me . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LocalHero1953 Posted January 10, 2019 Share #716 Posted January 10, 2019 (edited) 29 minutes ago, lct said: A compact SL would compete against the SL folks. We'll see that when pigs can fly. Instead a compact EVF camera with M mount would not compete vs rangefinders, just extend the benefit of M lenses to people wishing to use the latters w/o being bothered by an optical rangefinder. And no need to buy an hypothetical adapter with bells and whistles that Leica would have made for SL, TL and/or CL bodies if this were feasible at reasonable cost. As for M users wishing to use monstrous autofocus lenses on a manual compact body, i would not call this a niche, rather a pigeonhole if you ask me . If they call it the SL2, would that make a difference? That's a rhetorical question: of course a SL2 that is a little smaller and more svelte (as it is expected to be) would be close to a M in size. As a body, it is already thinner than an M (aside from the battery grip). It just comes down to how to shoehorn that SL EVF into a smaller body. A compact SL is much more likely to compete against the M. Edited January 10, 2019 by LocalHero1953 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted January 10, 2019 Share #717 Posted January 10, 2019 I'm not in the know at all but i suspect the SL2 will have some common points with the full frame Panasonic bodies including size unfortunately. None will allow for auto image magnification with M lenses anyway. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlaidlaw Posted January 10, 2019 Share #718 Posted January 10, 2019 37 minutes ago, lct said: I'm not in the know at all but i suspect the SL2 will have some common points with the full frame Panasonic bodies including size unfortunately. None will allow for auto image magnification with M lenses anyway. I have zoom for MF lenses set as a press on the joystick on the SL, which is always right under my thumb, so instantly available. A half press on the shutter button cancels. So the absence of auto-zoom for M lenses on an EVF camera, as long as there is a programmable joystick, would not be a bid deal for me. I would, in an ideal world, like a bandwidth control for focus peaking. For near field shots with a Noctilux at 0.95 on the SL, peaking is not quite accurate enough and I get red highlights on objects outside or at least right at the edge of the DOF. Strangely the M240 with its weaker/fussier peaking, is more accurate with the Noctilux than the SL. Wilson 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LocalHero1953 Posted January 10, 2019 Share #719 Posted January 10, 2019 43 minutes ago, lct said: I'm not in the know at all but i suspect the SL2 will have some common points with the full frame Panasonic bodies including size unfortunately. None will allow for auto image magnification with M lenses anyway. Well, my point was that if Leica produced a compact SL, it would effectively be the SL2, so there would be no concerns about competition with the current SL. Whether they can actually produce a compact SL - i.e. M-format, M-size, L-mount - is another matter. I suspect that, in the L range, Leica is less concerned about competition among bodies and more about expanding the market for L lenses. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted January 10, 2019 Share #720 Posted January 10, 2019 As far as camera size is concerned, the Pana S1R looks a couple millimeters shorter than the SL 601 (link). Far from M compactness then. http://dicahub.com/sites/default/files/image/2018/09/size-comparison-between-panasonic-s1r-nikon-z7-and-leica-sl.jpg Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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