Leica SL or Hasselblad X1D

[LD_50]

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What would be the point of a larger sensor in the SL body? Why not just make a mirrorless S?

 

The Sinar back I linked to previously is basically that.

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[lx1713]

What would be the point of a larger sensor in the SL body? Why not just make a mirrorless S?

 

The Sinar back I linked to previously is basically that.

 

 

Agreed. The mirrorless S will come, sooner or later. The Sinar back is already here but how versatile is it? The SL is a Sinar back but smaller and comes with a grip. The Sinar P3 is too large. The next Sinar, P4 has to have the same adjustments but built for a smaller sensor probably the 30x45 but preferably for the SL for location work. 

 

I have a small need for an S system as well as the Sinar back. Just not justifiable economically. Leica might consider building and maintaining the bridges to these systems as a necessity because the professional disciplines such as the Scheimpflug principle cannot be easily replicated at speed digitally. Why focus stack if you can do it right in camera using the right photographic principle in 5 minutes?

 

Professional work comes in cycles. For example, I spent 12 years shooting with a Sinar 4x5 C2 (not a P as mentioned earlier) but that's too large for today's work nor are the Foba and Linhof studio stands. Sinar will disappear if no one uses their products. Sinars are not a bigger Novoflex tilt shift bellows.

 

The end game is that you need quality to produce quality. An S system, a Sinar P system, a SL system, a video system, which do you choose? An SL carefully designed can be and ought to the center that ties all the solutions as a general tool. One day sensors will be cheap enough for to be 4x5 in size if necessary then specialised tools might do a come back.

Edited May 14, 2018 by lx1713

[lx1713]

I'd just add that an SL with an L mount will limit the amount of tilt and shift that a true view camera system can do.

[peterv]

I understand there will allways be groups with special needs, tilt/shift landscapers, architecture and studio guys, sports guys and gals, etc.

 

As you say, the general public begins to believe sensors will get bigger and cheaper but maybe worldwide looking at the global sensor market, photography, besides smartphone photography, and cinematography (where there’s a strong tendency towards larger sensors in this era) are a niche themselves?

 

Of course there will allways be use for a 4 x 5 or 8 x 10 imager, but lots of photographers would be well served with 30 x 45 mm together with the versatily of the L mount.

[mmradman]

If Sony managed to squeeze Full Frame sensor in what was originally APS-C camera like NEX3/5/7 than it may be  conceivable to consider fitting either 30x45mm or 33x44mm sensor into the the L mount body - both formats have similar diagonal, 54mm and 55mm respectively.  Sensor plane is recessed 18mm behind the lens mount so difference between sensor diagonal and mount diagonal can be overcome.

 

My own measurements with Vernier callipers L mount is approximatly 51mm, it could be bit more as i held camera upside down to keep dust out and vernier in other hand so the vernier prong were tighter than the actual opening. As a comparison Leica M is 43mm and SLRs like Nikon F is 46mm and Pentax K is 47mm.  

 

Question is whether full frame L lenses would cover bigger sensor, if so bring it on but keep Full Frame option available.

 

Best that can happen in time is higher resolution SL camera - like a Nikon D850.  I did some pictures with SL601 and APO Sonnar ZF.2 2/135mm over the weekend and moire is present, last time it happened was on M240 with APO Summicron-M 90mm.  Fine/repetitive textures don't like sharp lens and 24Mp sensor.

[LD_50]

I was referring to the Sinar S 30|45, which already has the S sensor, back display, 4 button interface, joystick, etc. It’s very close to a mirrorless S camera already.

 

They could add a grip, internal shutter, etc and it doesn’t look like it would be much larger than an SL.

 

Again, I don’t see the point of adding a larger sensor (especially a newly sized sensor between SL and S) to an SL body. Just make it an mirrorless S at that point with the slight modifications to fit the larger sensor.

[Chaemono]

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Mirrorless S-mount body with 50 MPx and S008 with 75 MPx was my bet until the interview with Dr. Kaufmann. I'm speculating now that they will put a larger sensor in the L-mount simply because "there are more opportunities" for it. I don't know if it makes commercial or technological sense but on the surface of it, the physically bigger L-mount gives Leica a competitive advantage over Sony. APS-C, FF, and 'MF' in one mount would create a very sticky ecosystem hard to emulate for others. 

 

Less compressed JPEGs here (in case anyone cares ): https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-TQdnQV/

 

L-mount

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E-mount

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[LD_50]

Nothing Leica does will be hard to emulate for larger competitors like Fuji and Sony. They don’t really have legacy systems to deal with. Sony has proven they will rapidly iterate to whatever builds their market share. Fuji rapidly built up their APSC and now MF systems as well, from scratch.

 

Canon and Nikon have more of a legacy issue to deal with because of their massive lens systems, with Canon in a better position.

 

Adding a larger sensor to the L mount body doesn’t do anything for Leica but to require another new set of lenses while throwing away an amazing set (S).

 

I understand the random speculation based upon Kauffman’s comments but I’ve still not seen any real explanation as to what the point would be in throwing away the S mount to go to the L mount with its total of 6 lenses (that likely will not cover a larger sensor’s image circle effectively). They can simply produce a mirrorless S camera if that’s what they want.

[Chaemono]

Fuji and Sony have deeper pockets and can do what they want but too bad their APS-C/FF mounts are so small. That’s why Leica may have to go down the route of the L-mount “ecosystem” to ensure long term commercial success. They can try to tie in APS-C, FF, and ‘MF’ users in one mount. Customer relationships become stickier, switching costs higher, cross selling opportunities bigger. Of course, the excitement of this OP here https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/279389-good-news-from-wetzlar/ means that the S system has a bright future, too. Speculation is so much fun until we hear more on June 14.

[Jon Warwick]

Exactly, the same mount would possibly allow a lot of cross usage and cross selling if it ever occured. No different to people initially using TL lenses on the SL as the latter built up its lens range, but everything upscaled into medium format. (1) If a larger megapixeled medium format sensor existed on a mirrorless, people could use M (via SL adapter) and native SL lenses - in “crop mode” - at a resolution that might not be dissimilar to what the existing M and SL provide at 24mp?? (2) people could use an adapter with S lenses out the gate to allow full coverage on the full medium format sensor??, whilst (3) Leica owners have a body that provides the platform to add on mirrorless medium format lenses as and when they’re introduced.

If it worked (no idea on my side if it’s feasible) this type of ecosystem would be unique in its ability to draw people in from all sides of legacy 35mm Leica and S into medium format mirrorless .....

[peterv]

Exactly!

 

BTW, the image cirle of the Leica S System, the diagonal of 30 x 45mm, is 54mm.

 

When Sony was said to prepare a FF camera with an E-Mount, there were lots of nay-sayers who dismissed the possibility of the E-Mount being large enough 

Adding a larger sensor to the L mount body doesn’t do anything for Leica but to require another new set of lenses while throwing away an amazing set (S).
 

 

Well yeah, but it just so happens that Leica is in the business of, well, making lenses 

And there would be no reason for throwing away older S-Mount lenses, optical quality is top notch and there's an adapter. Heck, development costs for a DSLR body have already been spent ten years ago when the S2 was first announced so they could perhaps keep a DSLR line out there too.

 

[AndreasAM]

As a clarification or to throw in some confusion

 

(51 mm is the appr. Inner diameter of the SL-mount throat)

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Edited May 14, 2018 by AndreasAM

[lx1713]

I feel the L-mount is pretty much future-proof based on the mount diameter. What's important is they don't really need to put a larger sized sensor into an L mount if the market isn't ready. But it's technically possible because there is space for a larger sensor and micro lens technology to resolve corner fall off issues or space to do stabilisation or larger surface area capture to calculate distortion.

 

The key is Leica is thoughtful in its strategy. Else why expand beyond 35mm space. There's the S - medium format with central shutters, the Sinar technical cameras - 4x5, 8x10. That's a strategy for the professional in mind. While I can imagine a portrait of a celebrity against a Sinar but a Hermes makeover of a Sinar doesn't seem possible.

 

Bear in mind, a mf sensor that delivers 16 bit files is different from a 35mm sensor that sends 14 bit files as well as a body that has a central shutter as a feature. These are costly physical and data limits that separate the users of the SL from an S/Sinar S3045. It's not just sensor size. The S system and line of lenses is here to stay but how do you draw the line from SL to S and to the Sinar. They are different systems at the end of the day. That larger SL mount can help.

 

When I purchased my Sinar, I got a macro Apo Sironar 210, a normal lens for the 8x10, slight tele on the 4x5, increasing long tele when used on 6x12, 6x9, 6x7, 6x4.5. I got enormous amount of leeway in tilt and shift because the huge image circle but even then I ran into limits when I got adventurous. That's something the SL or the S cannot do easily at the moment. Again the larger SL mount and sensor can help because Sinar can design a more mobile P camera for the tiny SL. It's hard to do it with the tinier Sony mount. Photography doesn't begin and end with resolution as the measure of the image.

 

How does it help in each use case? It's obvious in some situations not so easy in others. Having a common camera to deal reasonably well in each is a good thing.

 

For example if Leica wants to compete against a 50mp 35mm sensor, what is it doing better that makes economic sense? Does the competitor have 16 bit files, sooner or later, maybe. Do they have central shutter lenses available now? Can they insert a larger sensor without obsoleting their entire existing range of lenses? Do they have the expertise to whip up a range of mf lenses with central shutters on short notice? I think only Fujifilm.

Edited May 15, 2018 by lx1713

[Chaemono]

Come to think of it, “more opportunities” for the L-mount doesn’t necessarily have to mean within photography. I looked at the size of the dispersion screen on my manual DeLonghi espresso machine this morning. Leica could license the mount for a new line of portable espresso makers, for example. It would be designed with espresso lovers in mind who value “Das Wesentliche” and marketed under the catchy slogan “Espresso made right, anywhere.”

[Paul J]

As a clarification or to throw in some confusion

 

(51 mm is the appr. Inner diameter of the SL-mount throat)

 

 

Interesting!

 

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[Paul J]

Think my next purchase will be either a Hasselblad X2D or a Leica XL (?) if it does materialise.

 

I would rather Leica lenses and eco system.

Edited May 15, 2018 by Paul J

[alib]

Hi, does anyone know if you can use say a leica 50mm lens on X1D without any vignette and whether the lens image will cover all of the sensor?

 

Thanks

[Bill W]

Hi, does anyone know if you can use say a leica 50mm lens on X1D without any vignette and whether the lens image will cover all of the sensor?

 

Thanks

I saw some examples on the Hasselblad forum I believe and the combination did not work very well from what I remember.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica L-Mount

[frame-it]

the R-80 looks nice https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/283506-r80-14-on-the-hasselblad-x1d/

[alib]

the R-80 looks nice https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/283506-r80-14-on-the-hasselblad-x1d/

 

Thanks. I was expecting the M wide angles not to work so well, but was hoping to use my early noctilux but sadly that appears elsewhere in the thread to give rise to vignetting. So, need to get an R80 1.4 then  .