Leica SL or Hasselblad X1D

[frogfisher]

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Ok, how do you cope with edge colour anomalies, crop? Do you find it tolerable on SL sensor?

Color cast is easy to remove in Lightroom or CornerFix. What stays are detail resolution, sharpness, fine color and a unmatched feel / mechanical build. The Images are, lets say, alive, vivid. Its also a superfast lens, when zone focusing

 

Edit: Oh yes, the red/magenta corners can be discouraging. The are very obvious. When fixed, no need to crop

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Edited March 15, 2018 by frogfisher

[frogfisher]

Do you pick a particular lens profile?

The specific Lightroom profile fixes distortion and vignetting very well. The sometimes frightening colourcast is easily fixed in Lightroom (Mark/paint the edges with selective brush and adjust color) or CornerFix. The latter works very well too. In my workflow, I use the brush, fix color cast, synchronise multiple images, maybe finetune a bit. Works well to me.

[lx1713]

I said to my wife this morning I'd put all my Leica on ebay to take advantage of the £1 fixed sale fee.

 

She wasn't happy.. she knows what I'm like and tells me I shouldn't sell anything, not for a while. So since this morning I have changed my mind, or at least seen sense enough not to list my Leica just yet

 

It's too short a time to get to know your Sony well enough to say your goodbyes to the Leica SL 

And the nature of work may change    making the value of the SL a better choice.

[satijntje]

Did she mean composition/subject matter or rendering?

 

Jeff

 

The rendering of course :-)

[otto.f]

But what if you have both M and SL which one to let go?   

 

Let the M go if it’s not a Monochrome1 or an M9. I wouldn’t sell a CCD M ever, just throwing money away too

[mmradman]

Color cast is easy to remove in Lightroom or CornerFix. What stays are detail resolution, sharpness, fine color and a unmatched feel / mechanical build. The Images are, lets say, alive, vivid. Its also a superfast lens, when zone focusing

Edit: Oh yes, the red/magenta corners can be discouraging. The are very obvious. When fixed, no need to crop

,

I used CornerFix in the past for files created with M9 and Biogon C 4.5/21mm. Are you saying Cornerfix also works with SL files, of course reference files for various F stops must be created first. Edited March 15, 2018 by mmradman

[frogfisher]

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I used CornerFix in the past for files created with M9 and Biogon C 4.5/21mm. Are you saying Cornerfix also works with SL files, of course reference files for various F stops must be created first.

Yes, CornerFix fixes red corners and vignetting also for SL files. Check https://sites.google.com/site/cornerfix/

[Jared]

i wonder if the new 100mp sensor will even fit in the X1d body....

 

one can see the basic size difference 'tween 50mp and 100mp at 1:15 in the video

 

 

 

Sony has announced two different 100 megapixel medium format sensors for release in 2018.  The IMX211 which is in your video is a "type 4.2" sensor meaning a size of 53.7mm x 40.4mm (larger than the X1D and Fujifilm GFX can accommodate) and the IMX461 which is a "type 3.6" sensor meaning a size of 44mm x 33mm.  The IMX461, presumably, will "drop into" a second generation GFX or X1D.  Of course, that doesn't account for the ancillary circuitry required to process the images, sinks to manage the heat, etc.  But there is, at least, room. Sony has said the chips will be available in 2018 but has not been more specific than that.  I'd be shocked to see next generation versions of the X1D and GFX before 2019.  The new chip will pose challenges for the X1D in particular since Hasselblad has made do without an ASIC to process the images and will likely have more trouble managing heat and power consumption with their more compact body.  

 

I'll be curious to see where Leica goes with the S008, assuming they'll want to release that prior to an SL2.  They have the only medium format body, I believe, that is a 3:2 aspect ratio rather than a 4:3.  Will they stick with that or move to a more commonly available chip size that allows a higher megapixel count for a given imaging circle?  If the S007 just had a 4:3 aspect ratio it would already be at 42 megapixels.  I don't see them switching to an EVF at this point in the game.  And that may be enough of a reason to stick with the 3:2 aspect ratio as well--doubt they want to redesign the pentaprism.  We'll see, I suppose.  

 

Personally, I'm quite happy with the current incarnation of the SL.  Especially now that I have the X1D to compliment it.  

[Alistairm]

Following on from my initial impressions, here are some more ramblings comparing the X1D to the SL. 

 

1. Physical ergonomics/build quality: They are as good as each other. I think the SL feels just ever so slightly more sturdy (and there are a few reports of broken SD card door hinges on the X1D). On the other hand, the X1D is the nicest camera in hand that I have used. Whoever designed the grip section must have hands about the same size as mine, because it feels like it has been custom made for me. 

2. Electronic interface: No change on my views here. The X1D has a lovely, clean menu system. Combined with labelling of the physical buttons, this makes it an easier camera to pick up and use than the SL. But it is comparatively slow. I'd call this a tie, but for the X1D's ponderous pickup to shoot time. Win to the SL. 

3. EVF:  I was unfairly harsh on the X1D's EVF at first. Once I turned off the focus peaking it is fine. But it is still vastly inferior to the SL's EVF. Clear win to the SL, and as the EVF is a huge part of the user experience an important win. 

4. Native lens quality: I now have three native lenses, the XCD 30, XCD 45 and the XCD 90. They are all very good, with the 30 and 90 being excellent. I don't think I have used a better wide angle than the 30, and that includes the Nikon 14-24 and Leica Summilux-M. I still prefer the Leica rendering and the versatility of the SL lenses is moving towards excellent with the recent releases and firmware update for the 50SL. That said the XCD lenses are really sharp and are all light and compact and mate really with with the X1D body in terms of size and handling. I still favour the Leica glass, but the XCD lenses are terrific for the X1D's intended use as packing MF quality into a small package. 

5. Non-native lens adaptability:  If you have M lenses the SL is the clear winner here. The X1D works well with Kipon adapaters (which I have in the M Mount and for the Mamiya 645 mount), but with electronic shutter only and a slow read time on the sensor you need to be careful to keep the camerea very still for longer than you may be used to. Due to the larger sensor, most "full frame" lenses vignette on the X1D so the SL is the better choice for non-native glass. 

6. Low light performance: I have changed my mind here. While the SL's EVF gives it an advantage in low-light, in terms of output the X1D is amazing. At one point I switched from aperture priority to manual without realising that on the X1D this disables auto-ISO. A portrait I took of a father and son just captured them beautifully but was underexposed 5 stops, so essentially completely black. I was able to bring it back, not just to usable, but to a lovely image. 

7. IQ: The X1D is miles ahead. Of course, this isn't a fair fight, but it never was comparing mini-medium format to 35mm. Even leaving aside the sensor, I think 

Overall: The cameras are likely to have substantial overlap in their audience. They are both luxury brand items from halo photographic manufactures, and both deliver class leading ergonomic performance. 

 

Ultimately, at this stage in my exploration of both, I see each as being very good in its own niche. The SL is the camera to go for if you are after a "mirrorless DSLR". It is fast, flexible, weather sealed and has staggeringly good native lenses, but is rather large. That said, it also plays brilliantly with the M glass so is capable of running as a surprisingly compact rig. 

 

The X1D is slow, has a ponderous startup to first shot time and produces the best images I have seen to date out of any camera I have used. Aparently that slow start up time has much to do with Hasselblad's invidual calibration of each sensor and the half a gigabyte of calibration the camera loads when it is first turned on. Whatever the case, as someone who shot a Mamiya 645 film system, the compact size and sheer IQ of the X1D continues to amaze me. Even with the 75 Cron to play with, the SL has seen precious little use since my X1D arrived. 

 

If I could only keep one it would be the SL. The verstaility and speed combined with the gorgoeous native glass and the prospect of a higher resolution senor in a gen 2 body makes it the better singe quiver option. But having both I am as happy as a pig in mud and it will be fascinating to see how much use the respective systems develop over the years and how much use I make of each of them. 

[Jon Warwick]

^^ superb overview above between the two.

My experience is similar. I’ve studied files that I’ve taken over various opportunities with both the x1d and Sl. On my side, everything pointed to image quality being better with the x1d (not unsurprising), but I preferred the handling and general “maturity” of the SL.

THEN i tried the latest Sl 75mm Summicron, 50 ISO, tripod mounted ...... and the image quality for large print sizes (I print at 40”-50”) shrank between the Sl and x1d.

As such .....I am certainly ditching the M digitial, looking more clearly at the Sl Summicron, and going for an Sl, assuming too it could get a boost in megapixels ...and really underscore my comments above

Edited March 25, 2018 by Jon Warwick

[vladik]

Two entirely different cameras. Hasselblad ‘compactness’ it is that compact is it?

[Alistairm]

Yes - it is incredibly compact. Whatsmore, all of the native lenses seem to embrace the concept of a compact style of MF camera. 

 

Here is a pic of the X1D next to a Pentax 645D, a Mamiya 645 Pro, an M10 with 35 Lux and a CL with 60 APO-Macro-Elmarit. 

 

Plainly enough the M takes that cake, especially for an f/1.4 lens, but also plainly enough the X1D is more size comparable to the manual focus 35mm M and the APS-C CL than it is to the other two medium format bodies. 

 

I used the SL to take the photos, so it is not included in the shot... but the SL's native lenses are all either quite large the Crons or friggen massive (the zooms and the Lux). 

 

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[Bill W]

Good visual comparison Alistarim. I was curious about the CL.

[Jared]

Following on from my initial impressions, here are some more ramblings comparing the X1D to the SL. 

 

Ultimately, at this stage in my exploration of both, I see each as being very good in its own niche. The SL is the camera to go for if you are after a "mirrorless DSLR". It is fast, flexible, weather sealed and has staggeringly good native lenses, but is rather large. That said, it also plays brilliantly with the M glass so is capable of running as a surprisingly compact rig. 

 

The X1D is slow, has a ponderous startup to first shot time and produces the best images I have seen to date out of any camera I have used. Aparently that slow start up time has much to do with Hasselblad's invidual calibration of each sensor and the half a gigabyte of calibration the camera loads when it is first turned on. Whatever the case, as someone who shot a Mamiya 645 film system, the compact size and sheer IQ of the X1D continues to amaze me. Even with the 75 Cron to play with, the SL has seen precious little use since my X1D arrived. 

 

If I could only keep one it would be the SL. The verstaility and speed combined with the gorgoeous native glass and the prospect of a higher resolution senor in a gen 2 body makes it the better singe quiver option. But having both I am as happy as a pig in mud and it will be fascinating to see how much use the respective systems develop over the years and how much use I make of each of them.

 

This matches my experience pretty closely. The SL is a vastly better general purpose camera, but if you don’t need speed for a given situation, don’t need image stabilization, and don’t need wider than 24mm or longer than 95mm equivalent (at least for now), the output from the X1D is just stunning. I will definitely need to pick up a 30mm for landscape work on the X1D. And I’m thinking about the big zoom on the SL as well.

[scott kirkpatrick]

Good visual comparison Alistarim. I was curious about the CL.

Actually, if the CL had its 18 or 23, and the SL was placed at the extreme right end of the lineup, that would be even more impressive.  The CL60 is the biggest of all of its lenses (except the 55-135 when tromboned out fully).  And an M10 with, say, a 28 Elmarit-asph would be smaller; with the legacy 28/5.6 it would almost disappear.  Maybe you can take the M10 off the line as the winner and see which is bigger, the SL with 24-90 or one of the mirror-box MFs.

Edited March 25, 2018 by scott kirkpatrick

[Alistairm]

Scott - I just plonked then down with what I had on them, so no magic in the lens choices The CL is the smallest and lightest camera, but the M lenses unsurprisingly lead the autofocus offerings if you want small and fast lenses. And one of the keys to keeping the X1D compact is the relatively slow lenses. Of course, with the 18 pancake the CL is tiny, and with a 24 Lux the M is much bigger.

 

As a system, the SL is the biggest, the X1D next, then the M and the CL can switch depending on lens choice, but the M will be heavier.

 

The SL with 24-90 + lenshood might be as long as the MF cameras, but nowhere near as bulky or annoying to carry. I’ll take a few more comparison shots soon!

[FlashGordonPhotography]

Keep in mind that the next lot of X1D lenses are bigger than the original three. The 120mm is 50% longer than the 90 and the zoom is the same size as the 120 but fatter and heavier. It doesn't stop the X1D still being remarkably small. However the Pentax (I have the 645Z) starts to get closer with it's lovely 45-85 at 2.4kg. This will be about the same weight as the X1D and zoom and the S and zoom (2.6kg). In comparison the SL is 2.1kg with the zoom and the CL is under a kilo.

 

Currently I'm using a few HC lenses to fill out my X1D kit and I find that I walk out the door with remarkably similar weights if I take the X1D, SL or Pentax. Even the Sony A7R3 or A9 kit only shaves a few hundred grams off overall, unless I go for lesser optics or a limited number of small primes.

 

When the X1D zoom arrives, which I'm looking forward to, it's make the X1D about the same as the SL in size and weight.

 

Gordon

[Jeff S]

When the X1D zoom arrives, which I'm looking forward to, it's make the X1D about the same as the SL in size and weight

I also look forward to handling the XCD zoom (I’m still comparing the X1D and SL), but disappointed that it lacks OIS. If indeed it’s as big and heavy as the SL zoom, which has a significantly broader focal length range and OIS, then that will be a bit of a letdown (despite the larger format).

 

The real test, though, will be how it balances in the hand and whether the leaf shutter extends handhold-ability to offset lack of stabilization. I prefer the profile and grip of the X1D; Hasselblad hit a home run with the shape and feel, at least for me.

 

Jeff

Edited March 25, 2018 by Jeff S

[IkarusJohn]

The SL will always be the platform for zooms, long teles and general photography for me.

 

What interests me about the X1D is that sensor and having one fine lens to use with it.  I admit I'd like a 6x6 sensor, but that is a long way away, and the existing sensor cropped results in an acceptable image (6,200 x 6,200 pixel 38.4MP image, if my maths is right).  I'd just like the start up time improved, the EVF improved, the buffer time improved - just the whole thing brought up to a similar standard as the SL.

 

The 30mm and 90mm lenses sound very good, but perhaps a little slow for a single lens choice.  For such a single lens system, I'd probably prefer something in the 28-21 (35mm fov) range, which would be 30-25 in an XCD lens.  Is there anything faster coming in that range?  A nice Zeiss lens ...

Edited March 25, 2018 by IkarusJohn

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[Jeff S]

https://www.hasselblad.com/press/press-releases/hasselblad-expands-the-lens-range-for-the-x1d-50c/

 

The 80 will be the fastest, speed not yet specified.

 

Jeff

Edited March 25, 2018 by Jeff S