Question for Guy and Others Feel Free to Chip In!

[Guest guy_mancuso]

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Scott the man outside was a bad light day and we were on a white roof, they paint industrial roofs here white to reflect the heat off. desert living techniques but your right it really was horrible and that was about the best frame because he was squinting so bad. Needless to say we did not last long there. But i did go after the airport being right behind him for marketing reasons so longer lenses will compress and pull a background in.

 

 

Now going back to backgrounds and lighting , Erl brought up a point on indoor sometimes you get a nice room size and sometimes a shoe box to work in. My big trick is on my softboxes i use folding grids. Here is basically what i am doing if you have 2 or 3 softboxes in a small room, what happens . Light is bouncing all over the place and it becomes uncontrolled. With the grids i can keep the light off the back ground and seperate each light much better and control it to the effect i am after.

[Guest guy_mancuso]

Someone asked about the Lux and the cron in 75mm. Well you have to think of the difference between these two lens is wide open. The lux at F 1.4 down to 2.8 is a much different lens than the Cron at the same apertures. The Cron is very sharp wide open but has a nice bokeh to it but the Lux in the wide open area is more soft in appearence. The OOF or bokeh has a much smoother transition from sharp to OOF the cron is just a little more abrupt in that cutoff ( think of clipping a hightlight on a histo as a reference). Now when these lenses hit 5.6 there really pretty much the same and will cut your eyes out with sharpness. I tend to view the Lux as 2 lenses in one nice and moody to F4 than turns into a cron at F4 down. The cron is a beauty though but sharp all the way down which is a good thing. i have the 90 apo which is very similar to it. i went with 2 lenses here 75 lux and 90 apo for different looks but if there was only one lens i could buy than the 75 cron would maybe be the best choice. making this decision is a mental battle on these 3 lenses

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[Guest guy_mancuso]

BTW i like these conversations because it is about shooting and how and what you can do to achieve what your after. Love the gear stuff but shooting is what i enjoy talking about and they are educational

[woodyspedden]

Interesting i am the opposite, sort of use the 50 lux more than the 35mm , weird . But i never really liked the 50mm equivlent focal length. . Anyway i do have the 90mm Macro and i really love this lens . i just shot a whole series with it of a small computer the size of a greeting card , amazing thing too . Anyway the 90 macro was steller with it but what many folks don't realize this is a great lens outside the macro world and it is very small too. But at infinity i think without a test it is a little better than the 90 mm elmarit 2.8 what you may give up is some bokeh compared to the 90 cron f2 but if your at 5.6 it still will have nice bokeh. i'm going to try it next time i have some formals just to see how it performs. But if you have one coming than give it a try

 

 

Jamie the 90 framelines for the 135 apo actually help a lot , at least i know it is bigger than the focusing patch but smaller than the lines. I have something to judge framing with before it was really a hit or miss. So yes for a 125 dollar mod at leica i think very worth it and the 135mm apo although hard to find you can still get one at 2k or less. If you have the need to go long it is pretty damn nice and watch out wide open it is sharp.

 

Hey Guy

 

Apparently I missed your thread regarding the mod to the 135 APO. I just bought a like new in box for $1800 and it is fabulous. I agree with you that you can quickly estimate the FOV by getting less than the 90 frame lines and larger than the focus patch.

 

Could you point me to the link where you describe the modification?

 

Thanks

Woody

[Guest guy_mancuso]

Here Woody read them both . Pretty cool stuff

 

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/digital-forum/22162-leica-apo-135mm-3-4-framelines.html

 

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m8-forum/22542-official-news-converting-135mm-apo-framelines.html

 

 

Folks this is a really nice way to go if you have a 135mm apo

[Jamie Roberts]

{snipped} Outdoors, your waterfall guy and Guy's airport man are both squinting, perhaps because you each posed them facing the sun so that you had it over your shoulder. And their eyes are somewhat shaded. The soldier had the easiest time, as it looks like it was an overcast misty day and his face is well lit, but without sparkle (which can look artificial) in his eyes.

 

I really like open shade for solving the squint problem, and often providing really nice soft overall frontal lighting.{snipped}

 

 

Scott--here's where the internet and the size of the JPEGs is throwing your analysis off. So I'm going to comment because I don't want other people to mis-judge the shots by the size and quality of their browser rendition.

 

First, all of these shots were done in open shade, and when the light was right. The soldier was absolutely shot on a more overcast day than the other two, but the waterfall day was very hazy with not much direct sun.

 

In fact, the guy by the waterfall is actually not squinting at all--that's the way he looks, and I've got enough studio shots to prove it!

 

It's true his eyes were a little more shaded than I would ideally like--the sun was still quite high, even though it was getting to be evening. Nothing that PS can't fix; I just haven't done it yet

 

But this shot was in shade at about 5:30 PM. The nice light in his eyes (which is actually there in the full-size shot) comes from the concrete in front of him in direct sunlight.

 

The soldier also has quite a lot of sparkle in his eyes, you just can't see it at this magnification. When I get a chance, I'll post larger crops so you can see.

 

And Scott, if you're putting someone in open shade *with grass in front of them*, the grass almost always works to suck light out of the eyes. If you put them just on the edge of say, concrete that's still in direct sun--presto--instant reflector. No need for hand waving, PS or trying to juggle a reflector while shooting!

 

PS--I love these conversations too. They're great!

[barjohn]

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I know there are books on lighting but the few I have looked at don't address the issue the way I, as an amateur, need. Hence my questions to you all. Looking through the photo magazines there appear to be various starter sets available. For example in the latest issue (June) of popular photography there is a starter set discussed on page 58 that includes two 500 watt flood lamps with detachable reflectors, two umbrella reflectors, two stands, backdrop, floor mat, etc. all for $395 then on page 93 is a Calumet system at 2-750 watt @ $1299 and another with three light setup @ $1799.

 

My question is for an amateur doing an occasional portrait shot what is needed and what kind of light should one get? Does one really need the more expensive set up and what is gained by it? Next what is the best setup for placement assuming a small room in the 10x12 range?

[rvaubel]

 

My question is for an amateur doing an occasional portrait shot what is needed and what kind of light should one get? Does one really need the more expensive set up and what is gained by it? Next what is the best setup for placement assuming a small room in the 10x12 range?

 

Excellent question. I have never done studio lighting in my 61 years. But I am beginning to see the value of some simply very portable lighting. Actually I started using a couple of high tech compact florescent lamps as lighting and they worked so well that I have revised my opinion as to avoiding studio lighting at all cost. The compact florescents were full spectrum and very bright (and cool). Even though they weren't made for photography, they gave very pleasent white balance. I'm thinking now of getting small real photo dedicated florescents as my wife is getting tired of me stealing her goosenecks out of the library.

 

Any suggestions? I don't mind spending some money on some cool, continous lighting. I never liked strobe because of the difficulty of getting bright enough modeling lighting and incandescent is/was too hot and color balance complications.

 

Rex

[Guest guy_mancuso]

Well when i think of continous light than Lowell comes to mind. There not real expensive and they do a nice job.

 

The bad part

 

There hot as hell both in the room and when you burn your freaking fingers off.

 

need Chimera's that can handle the heat

 

There tungsten and will not always be 3400 kelvin , as they age that number drops and one maybe more than the other.

 

IR issues, need I say more

 

But there not real expensive . honestly i don't really recommend them overall.

 

Did i say they are Hot. LOL

[rvaubel]

Well when i think of continous light than Lowell comes to mind. There not real expensive and they do a nice job.

 

The bad part

 

There hot as hell both in the room and when you burn your freaking fingers off.

 

need Chimera's that can handle the heat

 

There tungsten and will not always be 3400 kelvin , as they age that number drops and one maybe more than the other.

 

IR issues, need I say more

 

But there not real expensive . honestly i don't really recommend them overall.

 

Did i say they are Hot. LOL

 

Guy

 

COOL continous lighting. That's what I want. Some variation on compact florescents is what I want. In fact I just started screwing around with a God awful expensive fixture for my new, high tech aquarium and its got four 48" T-5 HO 6500Kelvin that put out 240 W and about 50 jillion lumens. If someone is adapting these things for photographic use, I will.

 

Rex

[Guest guy_mancuso]

Strobes . There are three types . Portable , Power Pack system and Monolights.

 

 

Portable will be the cheapest overall and they work okay . Big plus they can go anywhere without AC

 

The Bad

 

No modeling lamp

Recycle slow

running out of power pretty quickly

No real stands for them

Not the best choice and a lot more guess work tweeking different power in the units

 

Monolights

There nice and you can get a kit at a pretty good price and they work really well. i use the new Dynalite twinkles now 400 watts each and have 4 of them with grids , softbox adapters and such

 

Ther Bad

have modelling lights most are 150 watt though and not 250 watt , so little harder to see

 

Need more AC outlets because the power and head are combined , 4 monolights need 4 outlets.

 

Not the fastest recycling times but respectable 2 to 3 seconds for most systems

 

Top heavy on stands. This can be a issue. most Mono's are a couple pounds and add a softbox to them and a light weight stand are only asking for disaster, they will fall i guarnteee it . So for me the ones with softboxes get the heavier duty stand like the ones that go 10 ft tall becuase there heavier duty and have a bigger leg spread. the small stands i use a 7ft style for just the Mone and a grid. the softbox is the culprit here becuase it adds weight and bulk.

 

Maybe not as many accessories as the power pack style

 

Probably not recommended for heavy duty fashion work were hundred of shots are taken

 

Other than that there pretty good and for normal work do a nice job.

 

Power Pack style

 

Well these range from a decent price to the completely absurd price. But they recycle the fastest , can handle longer periods on continous use, more accessories, bigger modeling lamps and more control overall. Also more consistent and i am probably missing a few good points too here

 

The bad

 

Bigger systems and more to lug around.

 

packs are pretty heavy

 

heads are smaller though and have fans built in as do monlights also

 

Less space to work in. If you only have one pack and three heads than most cases the light can only be several feet away because all heads must connect to pack. Almost forced to have a two pack system. i use one pack and two heads for lets say portraits as a backlight and hairlight . than the other pack main and fill.

 

Now there are many differnt brands here and some really good and some just suck really bad and not worth your money. Stay away from the e-bay crap please

 

Power pack system that i used and really liked . Profoto's and Dynalites. Dynalites provide a big bang for the dollar and are very small and light. Great travel kit and also great in the studio. For starting out i could not recommend a better setup. Notice i am avoiding the very cheap stuff, lights are a investment that can last years buy a good set to start and build on that set. Profoto's, Elincron, Broncolor, Balcar, Speedotron are all great systems but not cheap. I love Profotos and if your going for it than i highly recommend them.

 

Monolight system again many out there and don't know all the names. But look for built in fans (very important) at least 150 watt modeling lamp and some come higher. Look at there line of accessories and make sure as you grow it can grow. Small light and can be 400 watts or more each i recommend. they can go as high as 1000 watts but if you using a M8 than really you don't need the overkill. Most time even with my 400 watt lights i am turning them down. Look for built in slaves and adjustable power settings.

 

that is all i can think of at the moment , maybe someone can add what i forgot

 

Oh take lighting workshops from Guy. LOL Just kidding but do practice and play a very good way to learn

[Guest guy_mancuso]

I forgot HMI lights which are continous but usually expensive but there not that hot and flouresent setups. i have not paid much attention lately but there is some good stuff out there

[scott kirkpatrick]

Scott--here's where the internet and the size of the JPEGs is throwing your analysis off. ...

 

First, all of these shots were done in open shade, and when the light was right. The soldier was absolutely shot on a more overcast day than the other two, but the waterfall day was very hazy with not much direct sun.

 

In fact, the guy by the waterfall is actually not squinting at all--that's the way he looks,

But this shot was in shade at about 5:30 PM. The nice light in his eyes (which is actually there in the full-size shot) comes from the concrete in front of him in direct sunlight.

...

And Scott, if you're putting someone in open shade *with grass in front of them*, the grass almost always works to suck light out of the eyes. If you put them just on the edge of say, concrete that's still in direct sun--presto--instant reflector. No need for hand waving, PS or trying to juggle a reflector while shooting!

 

PS--I love these conversations too. They're great!

 

I agree that the waterfall guy has deep-set eyes, and you can see them clearly. Guy's rooftop shot sounds like it was no fun for subject or photographer. And the main point of those two examples was managing the relationship of subject to background by choice of lens focal length. I didn't mean to be critical with my remark about putting the sun over your shoulder, but I bet we all do it by instinct.

 

The eyes seem to be the key. In Guy's more formal portraits you can always see the main light as a white spot in the pupils of their eyes. In the two that I included, the eyes of my beer garden colleague are a little dead because the tables were dark brown, and he is looking slightly down. My daughter's eyes (looking over the bun) are alive because we were sitting in relatively deep shade and there was light from all around, rocks, light dry grasses and sky, and she is looking straight at the camera. So the first is an example of "sucking the light out of the eyes," and the second avoided it, perhaps because it has sky as well as grass providing the light.

 

I'm used to looking for open shade when out in the wilds, but less experienced in finding it on a city street, and looking for the reflected light in the right places to supplement the shade. The waterfalls that restaurants use for noise and visual isolation are a great find. Have you used large areas of solid color from billboards and signs as fill? Classic stage lighting uses steel blue gel from one side and straw yellow from the other to give a strong modeling to faces. I bet you can find that combination on the street.

 

An example that I am aware of is our living room, which has white walls, white ceiling, light grey floor, light colored furniture and a big black upright piano. The windows are large and open to the south and west. We have a different lighting setup every hour of the day.

 

Working with natural light sources rather than 3500K and down artificial lights makes extra good sense with IR-cut filters since the Leica firmware corrections seem to be balanced right for their 5500K middle estimate of daylight. Sean Reid has posted some amazing emerald green patterns resulting from uncorrected 3000K white walls shot with a 12 to 16 mm focal length lens. When I shoot my white wall in indirect daylight at 15mm with a B&W filter, i don't see anything as dramatic.

 

scott

[Guest guy_mancuso]

Scott glad you brought the eyes up because it is important to catch that stuff , it was really one of the worst situations that i was dealt with as a shooter and as the subject, we lasted 5 minutes . The guy could not take the reflection coming off the deck. it was wierd light.

 

Been finding the sweet spot is around 5400 kelvin with IR filters and daylight. interesting when something comes in odd in either C1 or LR I will automatically put it at 5400 and see if that is the correction and most times it is.

[AlanG]

I second Guy's concerns about continuous light. I have used all kinds of Lowell gear - Omnis, DPs, Totalights and other brands but the fact that they put out so much heat is a big problem and really limits how they can be used. Furthermore, electronic flash allows you to more easily balance its impact with existing lighting by controlling the ambient exposure via shutter speed and the flash exposure via its power setting and Fstop. I posted some samples below that show how I balance indoor wiht outdoor in the daytime. This would be hard to do with continuous lighting.

 

I'm posting because I feel I know a thing or two about lighting. Hot lights & electronic flash applied to all types of situations. But my specialty is lighting interior spaces. I find the Alien Bees with the wireless remote controls to be ideal for my work. The radio controls provide unique functionality - that's why I bought Alien Bees and White Lighnings. But you should know that the radio has it's limitations in that its signal can be affected by interference and is often blocked by walls . The Alien Bees are inexpensive, small, light weight and powerful. (I have 10 Balcar units plus a bunch of other strobes that I seldom use since I bought White Lightning and Alien Bees.)

 

The first thing I would say about lighting is consider if you are just trying to raise the value of the overall scene such as to fight contrast, or are you trying for an effect.

 

Here are some typical examples of what happens when I add various lights for effect.

 

http://goldsteinphoto.com/lighting1.jpg

http://goldsteinphoto.com/lighting2.jpg

http://goldsteinphoto.com/lighting3.jpg

http://goldsteinphoto.com/lighting4.jpg

http://goldsteinphoto.com/lighting5.jpg

 

I find in general that I like to provide back lighting and side lighting in many situations to add depth and interest. Even if a space has "adequate" lighting for the exposure you want, that doesn't mean you are bringing out the best in a subject or are being very creative.

 

My best advice would be to start out with one light and test how many ways you can use that one light. - Point the light from every conceivable direction and try a variety of light modifiers (softboxes, umbrellas, direct reflectors, bare bulb.) Try putting the light in unusual place too. Shoot a lot - it's free with digital. Study your results and decide if you need more lights for what you want to achieve and eventually you'll become real creative if you apply yourself.

 

It becomes much easier with practice and shooting on digital gives you immediate feedback so the learning curve is not so long and you can break free of the "tried and true" mentality.

 

Good luck.

[AlanG]

I second Guy's concerns about continuous light. I have used all kinds of Lowel gear - Omnis, DPs, Totalights and other brands but the fact that they put out so much heat is a big problem and really limits how they can be used. Furthermore, electronic flash allows you to more easily balance its impact with existing lighting by controlling the ambient exposure via shutter speed and the flash exposure via its power setting and Fstop. I posted some samples below that show how I balance indoor with outdoor in the daytime. This would be hard to do with continuous lighting.

 

I'm posting because I feel I know a thing or two about lighting. Hot lights & electronic flash applied to all types of situations. But my specialty is lighting interior spaces. I find the Alien Bees with the wireless remote controls to be ideal for my work. The radio controls provide unique functionality - that's why I bought Alien Bees and White Lighnings. But you should know that the radio has its limitations in that its signal can be affected by interference and is often blocked by walls . The Alien Bees are inexpensive, small, light weight and powerful. (I have 10 Balcar units plus a bunch of other strobes that I seldom use since I bought White Lightning and Alien Bees.)

 

The first thing I would say about lighting is consider if you are just trying to raise the value of the overall scene such as to fight contrast, or are you trying for an effect.

 

Here are some typical examples of what happens when I add various lights for effect.

 

I find in general that I like to provide back lighting and side lighting in many situations to add depth and interest. Even if a space has "adequate" lighting for the exposure you want, that doesn't mean you are bringing out the best in a subject or are being very creative.

 

My basic advice to anyone interested in learning lighting would be to start out with one light and test how many ways you can use that one light. - Point the light from every conceivable direction and try a variety of light modifiers (softboxes, umbrellas, direct reflectors with barndoors, bare bulb, grids.) Try putting the light in unusual place too. Shoot a lot on all kinds of subjects - it's free with digital. Study your results and learn. Then decide if you need more lights for what you want to achieve and eventually you'll become real creative if you apply yourself.

 

It becomes much easier with practice and shooting on digital gives you immediate feedback so the learning curve is not very long and you can break free of the "tried and true" mentality.

 

Good luck.

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[Guest guy_mancuso]

Great examples Alan. Great learning tool here folks. See how adding additional lights brings balance to a scene and with a mix with the ambient still keeps that warm home feeling to the images. Even just little kicker lights are so helpfull. Like in Alans shots here sometimes i will add a small portable under a plant or something like that to give it more depth.

[barjohn]

Thanks for the very informative examples. I just got back from Newport Beach and I was surprised to find that I could not find this thread in the M8 section. There was no indication that it had been moved. The whole split up of the digital section is very confusing. While this topic obviously has applicability to other cameras I was really interested in relation to the M8 that I am shooting and its particular lens combinations rather than any camera or lens. Maybe the customer section makes sense to someone but I have never even looked here before because if I have an M8 I am obviously a customer so I must belong in the M8 section...right? Oh well. Great information. Since I see that you (Guy) live in AZ in the phoenix (not far from Riverside, CA) area how often do you hold your workshops and what is the cost?

[luigi bertolotti]

Sorry, for my intrusion, but Guy's splendid portraits ar encouraging myself to start to work seriously with my 1-week-old M8... and sharing first results...

The attach is significant, for me, not for the result in itself, but for I tried M8 for the first time in a situation which forced me (new at all to Digital photo) to use some of the settings one can adjust on the M8: as I said... first week of using the M8, and not being a Pro photog, during the week is difficult I switch on the M8, so, at the moment:

 

- No yet software for RAW development installed on PC: I shot in Jpeg max resolution

- Picture taken outside, 9.30 pm, dark, 1 normal incandescent garden light

- M8 WB set accordingly to the light type, and sensitivity to 640 ASA (taht seems to me a lot, never used 400 ASA films...)

- Summilux 50 very old (1961 vintage...) at f2, focus at center eye.

- Auto exposure (time was 1/20 or so... I preferred not to switch to 1250 ASA, but maybe would have been better... neither I tried f1,4 for critical focus...)

 

I am not unsatisfied, but think that people in this thread can give me very good advices... I hope someone can tell me something...

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[andybarton]

Thanks for the very informative examples. I just got back from Newport Beach and I was surprised to find that I could not find this thread in the M8 section. There was no indication that it had been moved. The whole split up of the digital section is very confusing. While this topic obviously has applicability to other cameras I was really interested in relation to the M8 that I am shooting and its particular lens combinations rather than any camera or lens. Maybe the customer section makes sense to someone but I have never even looked here before because if I have an M8 I am obviously a customer so I must belong in the M8 section...right? Oh well. Great information. Since I see that you (Guy) live in AZ in the phoenix (not far from Riverside, CA) area how often do you hold your workshops and what is the cost?

 

One of the other Mods must have moved this overnight, but whoever it was, I agree with them. Leaving redirects in the M8 section (or indeed the digital section), would mean that they would be full of redirects as mods try to keep the sections tidy and relevant.

 

This is not an M8 specific thread and is in the Customer section so that everyone, film and digital users can benefit. After all, I assume that you wouldn't post a thread regarding tripods in the M8 section (unless it was in connection with the baseplate failure I was reading about this morning)

 

The M8 section is intended for subjects which relate directly to the M8. Just because you have an M8, doesn't mean that all your posts have to be in that section, especially general photography threads.

 

The vast majority of Leica users still use film, or indeed, other Leica digital cameras and many of the members here never look in the M8 section. Interesting and informative threads such as this one should be placed to reach the widest Leica audience.

 

Hope this helps!