freitz Posted August 5, 2015 Share #101 Posted August 5, 2015 Advertisement (gone after registration) I wouldn't mind a hybrid system that accepts both AF and Manual lenses. I would be disappointed having to purchase new lenses. I could utilize the auto focus; to me this would kill off the Q. When I think of most of the people I know with the Q. They also have an M. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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lct Posted August 5, 2015 Share #102 Posted August 5, 2015 We won't have to purchase new lenses most probably but how fast and accurate the new RF will be remains to be seen... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
digitalfx Posted August 5, 2015 Share #103 Posted August 5, 2015 We won't have to purchase new lenses most probably but how fast and accurate the new RF will be remains to be seen... I can't imagine it will be slower than our 50 year old rangefinders. Honestly I can focus faster with the Q evf Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted August 5, 2015 Share #104 Posted August 5, 2015 Too easy at f/1.7... Try to focus a wide lens at f/4 or 5.6... This is a job for the M not for compact cameras focusing at full aperture. The good old RF will be hard to beat there. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cirke Posted August 5, 2015 Share #105 Posted August 5, 2015 I can't imagine it will be slower than our 50 year old rangefinders. Honestly I can focus faster with the Q evf because you are honest maybe ? :-) and of course I agree 100% Too easy at f/1.7... Try to focus a wide lens at f/4 or 5.6... This is a job for the M not for compact cameras focusing at full aperture. The good old RF will be hard to beat there. I know nothing easier than to focus a 24 mm at f/5.6 with any AF (even bad) or MF Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
edwardkaraa Posted August 5, 2015 Share #106 Posted August 5, 2015 I don't believe for a second that Leica will ditch the classic M. I'm pretty sure it's a two camera solution, one with optical RF, one with EVF (that also happens to autofocus with a new line of lenses). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted August 5, 2015 Share #107 Posted August 5, 2015 Advertisement (gone after registration) I know nothing easier than to focus a 24 mm at f/5.6 with any AF (even bad) or MF AF does not focus at f/5.6 but at full aperture and you need a compact camera or an AF lens for that. M lenses are another story. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Livingston Posted August 5, 2015 Share #108 Posted August 5, 2015 AF does not focus at f/5.6 but at full aperture and you need a compact camera or an AF lens for that. M lenses are another story. Which is exactly what you want surely? The wider the aperture the more likely the focus will be at the point you want and then when the lens closes to the taking aperture, in your example, 5.6 or 8, you have the depth of field for that particular lens, either side of your chosen focus point... A AF lens would not only have to be motorised to change the focus point, it would also have to have an automatic diaphragm to close to your selected aperture at the point of the shutter firing. Of course, you COULD have the AF working at the selected aperture, but then it wouldn't be as precise in focus. On an M, you don't use the lens obviously, the optical system in the rangefinder doesn't actually need shallow depth of field and you focus completely differently. A hybrid would need to be AF at full aperture and close to the selected aperture on shutter firing... and a rangefinder, whether ERF (electronic rangefinder) or OVF (optical rangefinder), giving manual focus. From what I have seen so far, the Q appears to have manual and automatic focus pretty much sorted. Clearly it required an AF lens with automatic diaphragm, so a new Q with a small (but possibly expanding) range of AF lenses would be all a 'new' M would need to be for those who want one (and that could include me...). It could easily be refined over the coming years to out perform the current or equal future M cameras. That would mean that the existing M range could continue down the fully optical RF path for as long as there are customers for them... Although that number of M customers will reduce and reduce quickly, especially if an interchangeable lens version of the Q appears that will use M lenses with an ERF manually and the AF lenses automatically... At the end of the day, there are only two things that are important, performance of the camera in absolute terms (in other words, the results matter, however they were achieved) and the pleasure one derives from using the camera. As far as I can see from the results of the Q camera... The results already appear to be pretty stunning... so the actual final photograph achieve by users is really not limited by the camera... and I am pretty sure that Erwin, HCB or W Eugene Smith, if fitted with their particular choice of focal length, would have found it not only easier... but far faster and more convenient than the cameras they actually used... After all, they were interested in the result, not the means to get there... As far as pleasure in use is concerned, that is an ENTIRELY different matter. For these people it is the whole process from picking the camera up to the final result that matters... and that includes the whole process of manually focussing a rangefinder (and for many, still, selecting an exposure, and not necessarily the exposure the camera would have chosen). Most of those users are photographers who probably (like me) started photography in the days of fully manual focussing and fully manual metering... or guessing...! The serious alternatives on offer were rangefinder or SLR with a split image centre (not unlike a rangefinder actually), surrounded by a fresnel screen with the rest of the viewfinder, a matte screen. Manually focussing an SLR was easy... as you started the focus process the matte screen was the area you concentrated on... You could easily see when you were close to focus... once there, you would then use the fresnel screen to get closer and more accurate focus, finally ending up with extreme accuracy with the centre split image. The whole process was really really fast... FAR faster than my description and, funnily enough, pretty similar to rangefinder focussing but with extra help when you are way off focus. What was interesting is that you could change your focussing screen to anything you preferred... on my Nikon F2A's you had a very wide choice of focussing screen options, I preferred the matte screen outer and split image centre, but a lot of people preferred a clear screen with a split image or fresnel zone... Rangefinder cameras were pretty much as the M is now... except that the current M 240 has arguably the best and most accurate RF so far. So basically, focussing was ALWAYS something people needed help with, obviously. So if you can do it automatically, quickly, and with real precision... why would you not embrace it? Bottom line is, because some users like to... It makes them feel involved and it adds to the pleasure of the whole process. In fact, it could be the only reason those users chose Leica in the first place... so of course they wouldn't want to give that up! No one can argue with that... Me? I think I would prefer the camera to disappear and let me get on with my vision... so anything that takes away the mechanical process of photography, the better. All I want is it with Leica optical quality and character... So a fully automatic camera that can produce the same result as my M-P with my Summilux wide open in black and white and STILL have all the character I love about that lens, will get my money. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted August 5, 2015 Share #109 Posted August 5, 2015 [...] So basically, focussing was ALWAYS something people needed help with, obviously. So if you can do it automatically, quickly, and with real precision... why would you not embrace it? [...] Not sure if you got me right. With the optical RF we can focus M lenses quickly and with good enough precision today. Would the electronic RF be able to do the same with M lenses, this is the (my) question. AF with new AF lenses is another story. I have plenty of them already (Nikon, Fuji...). I won't spend the big bucks to add some Leica ones to my 30+ M and R lenses but it's just me. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Livingston Posted August 5, 2015 Share #110 Posted August 5, 2015 Not sure if you got me right. With the optical RF we can focus M lenses quickly and with good enough precision today. Would the electronic RF be able to do the same with M lenses, this is the (my) question. Some people, experienced users certainly, can focus M lenses very quickly and accurately under most conditions... but there are enough comments on here (and enough personal experience) to see that focusing in some conditions can be difficult and critical focus is missed often enough to be an issue. In low light or low contrast conditions, focussing manually is always difficult, but then it would difficult for many AF systems as well... however, there are technical improvements and maybe even new means of achieving perfect focus in low contrast conditions is something that we can look forward to in the future... on the other hand, it is hard to see where you could reasonably expect to improve the M rangefinder optically... And as you know, of course you couldn't AF M lenses, but I see no reason why you couldn't manually focus M lenses with a hybrid electronic rangefinder. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted August 5, 2015 Share #111 Posted August 5, 2015 [...] I see no reason why you couldn't manually focus M lenses with a hybrid electronic rangefinder. This is the question indeed. I see as many reasons as times i've missed focus with AF and focus assist devices so far but i remain open minded on that. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kkonkkrete Posted August 5, 2015 Share #112 Posted August 5, 2015 I think people are going to be surprised at how well this hybrid thing works. I think that with a traditional M-lens mounted it will feel VERY similar to a current M. With an new generation AF lens mounted, it will turn into a stunningly good full-frame point-and-shoot like the Q. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted August 5, 2015 Share #113 Posted August 5, 2015 Experience or autosuggestion? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
supertwipsy Posted August 5, 2015 Share #114 Posted August 5, 2015 Hmmm... See a patent lawyer in that case Here is one Having studied the cited International Patent Application WO2014/198245A1 as well as the German counterpart DE10 2012 009 975B4, which has just been granted, it seems to me that this has got nothing to to with the rumored new camera system. What Leica has patented here, is an opto-electronic rangefinder, which might replace the opto-mechanical rangefinder currently used in the M. Replacing the complex and costly opto-mechanical rangefinder might render the manufacturing of the body more cost-effective and might furthermore simplify calibration, as described in the patent specification. IMHO, this concept would make perfect sense if they intended to split up the M line into an autofocus line (in other words: a Q with interchangeable autofocus lenses accepting M lenses via an adaptor) and a rangefinder line, replacing the opto-mechanical rangefinder by an opto-electronic one along the lines of the patent in a forthcoming M model. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
saxo Posted August 5, 2015 Share #115 Posted August 5, 2015 ...... All I want is it with Leica optical quality and character... So a fully automatic camera that can produce the same result as my M-P with my Summilux wide open in black and white and STILL have all the character I love about that lens, will get my money. Same to me. When the Q apperead, I thought this may be the first in a line of new autofocus, full-frame cameras, with one change: interchangeable lenses. Good for existing M-lenses and for new autofocus lenses (my eyes getting older). But Andreas, administrator of this forum, wrote the following: "Stefan Daniel today explained that this is not going to happen: The optical rangefinder and the resulting experience for the M-photographer will remain the keystone of the M-system." This makes me very unsure about a new AF-camera with EVF, interchangable lenses and FF (Leica-format). I don't know how good the T-systems sells, but it is not a system for M-users IMHO. I doubt whether Leica will open a further line of AF-lenses (in addition to S-System, T-System, M-System). For such a small company probably a bit too many. Maybe I'm wrong, we will see. Till then, I check the Sony A7r II. Thats the one to be beaten. Martin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjh Posted August 5, 2015 Share #116 Posted August 5, 2015 Lots of stuff gets patented but is never actually implemented. When somebody has unearthed some patent application and promptly speculates that that’s what the next model by that vendor will be like, chances are they are wrong. They are in like 99 percent of those cases. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted August 5, 2015 Share #117 Posted August 5, 2015 Till then, I check the Sony A7r II. Thats the one to be beaten. Martin Is it? To many users these are different tools, more supplementary than competing. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rpavich Posted August 5, 2015 Share #118 Posted August 5, 2015 But Andreas, administrator of this forum, wrote the following: "Stefan Daniel today explained that this is not going to happen: The optical rangefinder and the resulting experience for the M-photographer will remain the keystone of the M-system." Ahhh...I can sleep at night again. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndreasAM Posted August 5, 2015 Share #119 Posted August 5, 2015 Here is one Having studied the cited International Patent Application WO2014/198245A1 as well as the German counterpart DE10 2012 009 975B4, which has just been granted, it seems to me that this has got nothing to to with the rumored new camera system. What Leica has patented here, is an opto-electronic rangefinder, which might replace the opto-mechanical rangefinder currently used in the M. Replacing the complex and costly opto-mechanical rangefinder might render the manufacturing of the body more cost-effective and might furthermore simplify calibration, as described in the patent specification. IMHO, this concept would make perfect sense if they intended to split up the M line into an autofocus line (in other words: a Q with interchangeable autofocus lenses accepting M lenses via an adaptor) and a rangefinder line, replacing the opto-mechanical rangefinder by an opto-electronic one along the lines of the patent in a forthcoming M model. Well I am not one. But as I understand (read both the English and German version), it states clearly in the patents (Description #0011 and Claims #5) that both Manual Focus as Auto Focus lenses can make use of the opto-electronic Rangefinder system in one and the same camera, there is no adaptor needed with MF-lenses. An in-camera-sensor reads the cam-changes of a M-lens, an in-lens sensor reads the focus distance in the AF-lens. If this will be implemented in the expected new system camera for both MF and AF lenses or just for AF lenses, or will be used only in a new M (with opto-electronic RF) as you suggest or that it will replace the M altogether, is more a choice for Leica within their economic strategy. That is to say, that we now assume that this new opto-electronic Rangefinder system is ready for production. It remains to be seen if it is at all feasible, with current standards of production. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
supertwipsy Posted August 5, 2015 Share #120 Posted August 5, 2015 Well I am not one. But as I understand (read both the English and German version), it states clearly in the patents (Description #0011 and Claims #5) that both Manual Focus as Auto Focus lenses can make use of the opto-electronic Rangefinder system in one and the same camera, there is no adaptor needed with MF-lenses. An in-camera-sensor reads the cam-changes of a M-lens, an in-lens sensor reads the focus distance in the AF-lens. If this will be implemented in the expected new system camera for both MF and AF lenses or just for AF lenses, or will be used only in a new M (with opto-electronic RF) as you suggest or that it will replace the M altogether, is more a choice for Leica within their economic strategy. That is to say, that we now assume that this new opto-electronic Rangefinder system is ready for production. It remains to be seen if it is at all feasible, with current standards of production. Andreas, I perfectly agree with your understanding of the patent. The system described in the patent might be used for M lenses without an adaptor. The opto-mechanical system would be simply replaced by an opto-electronic one. However, I suppose that the rumored new AF camera might not have an M mount, thereby requiring an adaptor to use M lenses, in addition to a new line of AF lenses. By the way, isn´t the T mount basically full frame compatible? (Of course, the current T lenses are not...) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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