Reid Review on M9 sensors

[jaapv]

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Leica has a commitment to a ten year service span after the end of production. The ME is still in the catalogue. It is inconceivable that they would voluntarily take any step to endanger that commitment. Additionally they are working on a permanent solution for the problem, according to one report on this forum successfully. No need to panic imo.

Edited January 15, 2015 by jaapv

[jaapv]

Weird, come to think of it. I cannot recall any ME being reported as having delamination..

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[zeitz]

The commitment is to repair OR replace at a favorable price with a new M camera as I read it. (The M8 was not repairable for 10 years.) M cameras are now discounted 10% (500 euros) everywhere to try and move them. What does it cost to repair an M9 including parts? 1000 euros? 1500 euros? And then possibly another 1000 or 1500 euro to do it a second time. It makes much more financial sense to stop repairing cameras and move the new ones. Even at 2000 euro below list, it is a more favorable impact on bottom line. The R&D cost to find the permanent fix also needs to be added to every camera that is repaired. Leica can't bleed red on these cameras for 10 years.

[jaapv]

And yet the only non repairable part for the M8 is the LCD for the rest it is fully serviceable. I really think you are unduly pessimistic.

[skuromis]

The commitment is to repair OR replace at a favorable price with a new M camera as I read it. (The M8 was not repairable for 10 years.) M cameras are now discounted 10% (500 euros) everywhere to try and move them. What does it cost to repair an M9 including parts? 1000 euros? 1500 euros? And then possibly another 1000 or 1500 euro to do it a second time. It makes much more financial sense to stop repairing cameras and move the new ones. Even at 2000 euro below list, it is a more favorable impact on bottom line. The R&D cost to find the permanent fix also needs to be added to every camera that is repaired. Leica can't bleed red on these cameras for 10 years.

It is clear that replacing the sensor with the same sensor won't be a permanent solution. This is also what Leica and most of its users are aware. Whether it makes sense and for how long, should be estimated by Leica, they have all the numbers. And if it turns out not to be profitable, then they will certainly offer another service. I'm sure they will do similar calculations for developing a new sensor (maybe it is even not them, maybe the supplier will develop and pay?).

And finally there is the consumer, who for a good like a Leica is very valuable. Maybe it is worth it to spend some money and keep the customer, rather then evaluating pure plus and minus for the profit. I'm sure there are no idiots at Leica.

[snooper]

I would imagine in such case that there is a contract between Leica and the sensor provider, and the said provider has an insurance covering the industrial mistakes.

 

Therefore I'm almost sure Leica does not pay the full price for each and every sensor changed, and this is somehow good news for us: a recall campaign of this size in Leica's business plan could definitely put the company in trouble on the long run if Leica were to be the only payer.

 

Let's hope for them - and for us as users - that the cost is shared.

[tredlie]

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Replacing an M9 by a discounted M240 is not an option for many, I would think.

These customers would have to cough up a number of grands which they

may not have nor want to spend (after having doled out that sum on a

supposedly long living Leica just a few years before).

 

Tred

[jevidon]

What you are seeing with regard to supplies is for open market and not what is under contract to be supplied to a buyer.

 

It's not really an open market item.

The sensor in question is Leica M9 specific. I know that no camera repair person will touch a digital Leica except to adjust the rangefinder. All the rest is digital and no one will go near it. I know because I checked with the few really top Leica independent repair people.

So, the only customer for this sensor is Leica.

[jevidon]

Weird, come to think of it. I cannot recall any ME being reported as having delamination..

 

They are too new. Give it a couple of years and the M-E may yet start showing the dreaded white spots. Hopefully for them and any other M9 and MM users, the flap over the sensors will become wide spread enough that the owners will take extra precautions to keep their sensors dry and get them cleaned only by Leica.

[jevidon]

It is clear that replacing the sensor with the same sensor won't be a permanent solution. This is also what Leica and most of its users are aware. Whether it makes sense and for how long, should be estimated by Leica, they have all the numbers. And if it turns out not to be profitable, then they will certainly offer another service. I'm sure they will do similar calculations for developing a new sensor (maybe it is even not them, maybe the supplier will develop and pay?).

And finally there is the consumer, who for a good like a Leica is very valuable. Maybe it is worth it to spend some money and keep the customer, rather then evaluating pure plus and minus for the profit. I'm sure there are no idiots at Leica.

 

I doubt that Leica will develop or cause to be developed a CCD new sensor. CMOS is the way all camera companies are moving despite some people claiming that the CCD image is superior to the M's with CMOS. That is certainly an issue I wish to avoid.

 

If the fix is only a redesign of the cover glass, and it seems that it is the way to go, then a new glass for the older design CCD sensors may involve a relatively low development cost and Leica may consider that a possibility.

 

I suspect that the best course is to take very good care of your M9's, MM's and M9P's

that are still corrosion free. Apparently the corrosion is not inevitable but more likely related to humidity and/or cleaning techniques. The many inputs from M9 forum members who have not had the white spots leaves me to believe that humidity and cleaning techniques is the cause. So take very good care of your sensors given that replacement sensors may be in short supply.

[skuromis]

If the fix is only a redesign of the cover glass, and it seems that it is the way to go, then a new glass for the older design CCD sensors may involve a relatively low development cost and Leica may consider that a possibility.

 

That's what I meant with new development

[jaapv]

They are too new. Give it a couple of years and the M-E may yet start showing the dreaded white spots. Hopefully for them and any other M9 and MM users, the flap over the sensors will become wide spread enough that the owners will take extra precautions to keep their sensors dry and get them cleaned only by Leica.

 

There are some pretty young MM cameras involved...

[Guest]

...Hopefully for them and any other M9 and MM users, the flap over the sensors will become wide spread enough that the owners will take extra precautions to keep their sensors dry and get them cleaned only by Leica.

...The many inputs from M9 forum members who have not had the white spots leaves me to believe that humidity and cleaning techniques is the cause. So take very good care of your sensors given that replacement sensors may be in short supply.

I afraid that taking "good care" of sensors is not useful advice for people using their CCD M cameras in hot and humid climates. Take your pick: cities such as Tokyo, Hong Kong, Shanghai, Seoul, Taipei, Bangkok, Singapore, or Washington DC for that matter, have many hot and humid months and there is no way that you can avoid these conditions if you use your camera regularly.

 

My M9-P and M-Monochrom both had sensors replaced within a year of purchase because of de-lamination, and now within a year of these replacements both cameras have developed "white spots". For the time being the spots are small enough that I can spot out the white spots whenever they are visible. I hope that I can hold off replacing the sensors long enough that Leica will have found a permanent solution for this de-lamination problem.

[Printmaker]

They are too new. Give it a couple of years and the M-E may yet start showing the dreaded white spots. Hopefully for them and any other M9 and MM users, the flap over the sensors will become wide spread enough that the owners will take extra precautions to keep their sensors dry and get them cleaned only by Leica.

 

What do you say to someone who is a single owner and never wet cleaned his M9 sensor (Arctic Butterfly only) yet still had to have the sensor replaced due to the sudden onset of white spot? I am not convinced that wet cleaning is the problem. It looks to me to be a 5 year self-destruct cycle especially as a similar problem has showed up on my S2.

 

FWITW: I use glass IR blocking filters behind the lens of my 4x5 Betterlight rig. Those filters only seem to last a few years before getting cloudy and discolored. And yesterday I was cleaning up a box of miscellaneous parts and found a 10 year old IR blocking filter from my PhaseOne scan back. It was nearly white, though I do remember wet cleaning that filter and then buying a new one when that failed. With that in mind, I think it is really a filter issue, especially as the M8 does not seem to be troubled. Perhaps I am stating the obvious, but the time may come when Leica replaces the filter and not the sensor. Now it is probably easier and more cost efficient to swap the whole unit.

[mjh]

Indeed it is the filter/cover glass that is causing these issues, not the sensor as such. Also wet cleaning is not the immediate cause of the phenomenon although it can play a role in facilitating the issue.

 

The actual issue is corrosion of the cover glass, i.e. a chemical reaction of glas molecules with H2O molecules. Now H2O is virtually everywhere, even though in some places the average humidity is higher than in others, so the cover glass needs protection and its coating serves to seal the glass against humidity (etc.). Or at least it does as long as it doesn’t get scratched, peels off or whatever. That’s where sensor cleaning gets involved as it is one factor suspected to be responsible for damaging the protective coating.

[bocaburger]

t looks to me to be a 5 year self-destruct cycle especially as a similar problem has showed up on my S2.

 

I find these discussions interesting, as I am an intellectually curious person, but I am glad I no longer own an M9. I suspect a lot of potential new Leica customers are going to take little away from these discussions other than to conclude that Leica lacks the expertise to head these issues off at the pass. Especially if it's not limited to just one model (refering to the quote about S2 above).

[jevidon]

I afraid that taking "good care" of sensors is not useful advice for people using their CCD M cameras in hot and humid climates. Take your pick: cities such as Tokyo, Hong Kong, Shanghai, Seoul, Taipei, Bangkok, Singapore, or Washington DC for that matter, have many hot and humid months and there is no way that you can avoid these conditions if you use your camera regularly.

 

My M9-P and M-Monochrom both had sensors replaced within a year of purchase because of de-lamination, and now within a year of these replacements both cameras have developed "white spots". For the time being the spots are small enough that I can spot out the white spots whenever they are visible. I hope that I can hold off replacing the sensors long enough that Leica will have found a permanent solution for this de-lamination problem.

 

I saw a reference for use in a humid climate. Storage in a sealed bag with silicone packets.

That should dry things out between shoots.

[jdlaing]

I saw a reference for use in a humid climate. Storage in a sealed bag with silicone packets.

That should dry things out between shoots.

 

Silica Gel.

[Guest]

I saw a reference for use in a humid climate. Storage in a sealed bag with silicone packets.

That should dry things out between shoots.

What shall I say, except to roll my eyes Just because you saw a reference doesn't mean that this is an effective solution for a hot and humid climate. Even a little thought should make it obvious that it isn't.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[timd.]

There are some pretty young MM cameras involved...

 

And here's the first ME :

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m-typ-240/356768-ueberlegungen-sensortausch-m9-vs-upgrade-m-2.html#post2867292