h.w. snuig Posted July 14, 2014 Share #1 Posted July 14, 2014 Advertisement (gone after registration) Hi, I’m new on this forum although I’ve been reading it for some time. As a professional photographer I feel the need to say something about Leica and I am curious what the memberst think about my words. In my opinion Leica is going in the wrong direction. I have used Leica gear for more than twenty years. It was in the analogue days when the M was a lightweighted and pretty fast tool, very suitable for dynamic subjects. ( AF was not developped yet, or still not that good.) In these days it is totally different. Compared to other modern cameras the M has become a rather slow tool, due to the lack of AF. I can say that though I'm experienced and quick with it.The camera also has become rather heavy. For a RF much too heavy. Recently Leica produced a new camera next to the M. The APS-C sized T. This time with autofocus, and a new line of lenses, including zooms. Let me keep it short: as many reviewers wrote, the T is very slow for a compact. Slow AF, slow in handling. Cheaper cameras like the Sony A6000 are much, much faster, apart from other advantages.. Still Leica introduced this camera as the best thing we've ever made ( Kaufman). In fact it is design and luxery instead of an excellent photographic tool. All in all the brand still does'nt have a camera that can easily handle dynamic situations and that's exactly the reason why the majority of pro's are not using Leica anymore. Ofcourse there is the quality of the glass, but the difference is decreasing. A good example is the Voigtlander Ultron 21 mm. On par with the summilux 21, at one sixth of the price! If Leica really cares for the essence of photography, they should build something up to modern standards. A M with a fast AF, or a new line that professionals can take seriously. The essence is indeed being able to make the picture. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted July 14, 2014 Posted July 14, 2014 Hi h.w. snuig, Take a look here leica where do you go to?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
jaapv Posted July 14, 2014 Share #2 Posted July 14, 2014 Where is Leica going to? Attaining 1% of the total photographic market. This is the way the company aims to survive and remain able to provide excellent cameras and lenses. As they are basically the only independent traditional pre-war photographic company still standing I would say they are doing something right. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
timde Posted July 14, 2014 Share #3 Posted July 14, 2014 The M does seem a bit heavy, comments/reviews regarding the T remind me of my time with the then new X-Pro1 and Leica products are expensive and sometimes embarrassingly overpriced - see EVF2 as example. I would like to buy an M 240 but I really struggle with the price and electronics package, it really is out of date, but then it allows so many more things than the M-E. For a lot of people I guess its not that important, I'm happy with Film and a CLE, and you can buy a Fuji XT1 or what ever for less than a M240 will depreciate in one year. However, Leica is profitable and there are plenty of other options if one needs fast AF, so I don't expect anything will change ... except perhaps the next M gets lighter. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edward Louis Marit Posted July 14, 2014 Share #4 Posted July 14, 2014 Some of us like having a traditionally made very high quality precision instrument. I used to use Hasselblad v system and Nikon. Now I use Hasselblad V system and Leica. I sold all of my Nikon gear. I especially don't miss my D3X which weighed as much as a boat anchor, and had so many menu options and buttons you needed to practically take a course in it. I had a minor twinge when I said goodbye to my FM2, but it has been replaced by a MP. With the two systems I can do everything I did before and I don't miss the Nikons at all. Plus I find the Leicas a joy to use. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
thighslapper Posted July 14, 2014 Share #5 Posted July 14, 2014 The next M will have the facility for AF lenses and backwards compatability with manual lenses. I 100% guarantee it. Don't ask be how I know ..... but there was briefly indirect evidence of this which the observant would have noticed ....... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted July 14, 2014 Share #6 Posted July 14, 2014 I would not be so rash as to disagree. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hey You Posted July 14, 2014 Share #7 Posted July 14, 2014 Advertisement (gone after registration) And also M-dedicated zoom lenses . . . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DigitalHeMan Posted July 14, 2014 Share #8 Posted July 14, 2014 I don't really understand the weight comments. The M3 is 580g, the M6 and M9 are 585g and the M240 is 680g. Does that extra 100g really make so much of a difference? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted July 14, 2014 Share #9 Posted July 14, 2014 And most of the 100 grams is battery. After the battery-consumption complaints.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrozenInTime Posted July 14, 2014 Share #10 Posted July 14, 2014 I am one of four local photographers who own the M Monochrom. I know no one who owns a M.240 or T. With a low M.240 take up , perhaps the desires of the traditionalists will be addressed before the M.240 is upgraded. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bocaburger Posted July 14, 2014 Share #11 Posted July 14, 2014 All in all the brand still does'nt have a camera that can easily handle dynamic situations and that's exactly the reason why the majority of pro's are not using Leica anymore. The majority of "pros" have not used Leicas since the 60s. Wedding pros, fashion pros, product pros, portrait pros...almost none ever used 35mm, period. It was almost exclusively medium and large format. Photojournalists were the only "pros" who ever used Leicas in any number, and with the advent of the Nikon F, most of them jumped ship or at least relegated the Leica to a minor percentage of their work. So frankly I haven't cared what "pros" used since I began being interested in photography, which is around 45 years ago. I really could give a rat's butt what "pros" are shooting with, or what "pros" want in the next Leica. If Leica makes their cameras for amateurs, that's fine with me. That said I'm not averse to the next M camera having AF. But I've used the latest "pro" AF bodies and they still don't always know what I want them to focus on, and manual selection of the focus point is way slower than just focusing manually by eye. Until there is an AF system whereby I can stare at the exact point I want in focus and the camera focuses on it instantly, AF will not replace MF for me. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Rawcs Posted July 14, 2014 Share #12 Posted July 14, 2014 The extra weight can aid stability but the extra bulk is a problem for me. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dant Posted July 14, 2014 Share #13 Posted July 14, 2014 Hi, I’m new on this forum although I’ve been reading it for some time. As a professional photographer I feel the need to say something about Leica and I am curious what the memberst think about my words. In my opinion Leica is going in the wrong direction. I have used Leica gear for more than twenty years. It was in the analogue days when the M was a lightweighted and pretty fast tool, very suitable for dynamic subjects. ( AF was not developped yet, or still not that good.) In these days it is totally different. Compared to other modern cameras the M has become a rather slow tool, due to the lack of AF. I can say that though I'm experienced and quick with it.The camera also has become rather heavy. For a RF much too heavy. Recently Leica produced a new camera next to the M. The APS-C sized T. This time with autofocus, and a new line of lenses, including zooms. Let me keep it short: as many reviewers wrote, the T is very slow for a compact. Slow AF, slow in handling. Cheaper cameras like the Sony A6000 are much, much faster, apart from other advantages.. Still Leica introduced this camera as the best thing we've ever made ( Kaufman). In fact it is design and luxery instead of an excellent photographic tool. All in all the brand still does'nt have a camera that can easily handle dynamic situations and that's exactly the reason why the majority of pro's are not using Leica anymore. Ofcourse there is the quality of the glass, but the difference is decreasing. A good example is the Voigtlander Ultron 21 mm. On par with the summilux 21, at one sixth of the price! If Leica really cares for the essence of photography, they should build something up to modern standards. A M with a fast AF, or a new line that professionals can take seriously. The essence is indeed being able to make the picture. God NOOOOO! Keep Leica as is. Leica is the ONLY manual rangefinder out there. OP, go buy a Fuji. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted July 14, 2014 Share #14 Posted July 14, 2014 Hi, I’m new on this forum although I’ve been reading it for some time. As a professional photographer I feel the need to say something about Leica.... Welcome to the forum !!! Leica is not specifically targeting the mainstream professional market, this is a fact : they have found a niche in the Pro market with the S2 (don't know if they have got satisfactory results) and there is a number of Pros who still appreciate the M for certain assignements (see the last Football championship... ) knowing well that they must revert to other gear for many tasks. They are following a certain path to gain a market share with products for users that, generally speaking, are more careful to some distinguishing details than to price/performance, keeping excellence on the optical side. The M is along this path, on the upper side, targeted for people who have firm in their minds what is a RF Leica; T is a continuation of this path, at another level, and is yet to be verified if it will result in a right move towards their goal : most of us, in this forum, hope that it will be like this, because we definitely love to use Leicas and hope they will be able to survive well to deliver us what we have enjoyed for many years. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herr Barnack Posted July 14, 2014 Share #15 Posted July 14, 2014 ...Ofcourse there is the quality of the glass, but the difference is decreasing. A good example is the Voigtlander Ultron 21 mm. On par with the summilux 21, at one sixth of the price!...I am having an extremely hard time believing that. Is there any proof to back up this claim? ...If Leica really cares for the essence of photography, they should build something up to modern standards...All I can say is that a lot of times in my experience, "New and Improved" has turned out to be only half that. I think Leica is pretty much on the right track. More often than not, autofocus in low light is nothing but heartache. I can do a lot better a lot faster with a f/1.4 lens and a rangefinder split image in terms of accuracy of focusing. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted July 14, 2014 Share #16 Posted July 14, 2014 The extra weight can aid stability but the extra bulk is a problem for me. The bulk of the M240 is the same as the M8 and M9. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
timde Posted July 14, 2014 Share #17 Posted July 14, 2014 M is 5mm thicker than M-E, I thought. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlashGordonPhotography Posted July 14, 2014 Share #18 Posted July 14, 2014 Welcome to the forum.... I am also a full time working photographer. I use Leica exactly for some of the reasons you cite as weaknesses. I like a solid camera in the hand. The extra weight gives a feeling of stability. Lighter cameras like my Sony A7 are far more likely to be strapped to a tripod than the M. And it's not like the Leica is heavier than ANY of it's DSLR competition. D800 and 5D3 are both much heavier. I appreciate that the M makes me use a more considered approach because of it's simple manual focus system. I appreciate the fact that in a wedding reception when AF struugles to lock on my M has fast and ultra reliable manual focus. I like the fact that I have a camera so simple to operate that I don't need the manual. I like that I don't need to micro adjust my lenses. I like that I see the world through a rangefinder rather than wide open through an OVF. And the shutter on the M240 is sublime. I like that I have hundreds of lenses to choose from and I love that some of them have character as a priority over technical perfection. I can shoot dozens of zoom lenses with the purchase of a simple adaptor. In fact I regularly use a mix of Canon, Nikon, Voigtlander, Zeiss and Leica optics on my M because it allows me to pick and choose almost any glass I want to use on it. And you know what? I like the fact that when I turn up to a wedding there won't be fifteen people with the same camera as me, thinking because they've got a D700 or a 5D that they are my equal and can just get in my way whenever they want. I'm the guy with the Leica. I'm special and not to be messed with.... I especially like the fact I can have two bodies and five lenses in a Hadley Pro. My back thanks me for that, every day. Leica is not the only tool in my toolbox. Just as a mechanic has a set of spanners rather than a single shifting type I have several cameras that perform different tasks. For me, sometimes AF is what's needed. Sometimes MF is desirable. And because I own many cameras, including the A7R and A7S I am able to confidently say the current M sensor is right up there in terms of DR and noise. A small step behind the Sonys but a small step ahead of any current Canon sensor. You mention the T. The T isn't marketed as a professional camera. It's a consumer camera. You and I, as working photographers, are nothing but a blip in the total market place.. The consumer market is the place to be. Pros using your gear is nothing more than a celebrity endorsment to get ordinary consumers to buy. And while we wach the TV economists warn about the doom and gloom of the next GFC to luxury market thrives. Cars, watches, cameras. The more expensive they are the better they do. Porsche and Ferrarri are breaking sales records while Ford closes factories around the world. The T is exactly where it needs to be for the market it's intended for. If Leica were to change direction to be a direct competitor to Canon or Nikon the company will die a fast and painful death. It seems that Leica's not going down that path is why it is the only profitable camera body manufacturer in the world. It's the niche players like Leica Cosina and Ziess who seem to be doing reasonably well. I wouldn't want to be the poor guy in charge of Canons camera division right now. When there's a 7 month waiting list every time a body is released you don't really need to worry if you're catering to the ever shrinking "pro" market. Some lenses are still hard to find today. Leica is working at 100% capacity and seems to be slowly increasing production. They couldn't supply 2% of the market even if they wanted to. A 1% niche they may be but it's a very profitable niche, at the moment. And I don't think you're right that professional photographers are not using Leica. I think those numbers are increasing. When I researched into shooting M9's as wedding cameras there was little information available, almost no photographers admitting to using Leica and a lot of negative comments on popular forums. Now there are dozens of web pages of working Leica users, most pros are at least interested in trying a rangefinder and on some of the forums I go to several other M users. I've shot Canon professionally for twenty years. But I am a part of a small but growing group that finds the DSLR at a distinct disadvantage to Leica and other mirrorless systems. That may not suit everybody or even most. But it sure suits me. Gordon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted July 14, 2014 Share #19 Posted July 14, 2014 M is 5mm thicker than M-E, I thought. No, that is the protrusion of the thumb wheel, the camera is the same or so near it makes no difference - I know, I have all three. I use the same ever ready case for all three. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul J Posted July 14, 2014 Share #20 Posted July 14, 2014 I hope they just keep doing what they are doing because I like where they are. I love the lenses and I love the M body. I love the R+D with the 50 APO, that is, to me, exciting. That's the sort of gear I want: Best possible quality. Coming from Large and medium format most my working life, I have found the M is miraculously small, light and super quick to use. It's why I choose it over Medium Format much of the time. I don't really care for AF or for any more functions than the M9 has. Just a body, a shutter speed dial, a shutter button and a lens with an aperture wheel is all I need (obviously the iso and minimal menu etc too). If they can develop an EVF in a way that is a pleasure to use then I'm all for that but as it is at the moment I don't need or want it. All I want, I mean really want and actually need, is more resolution and a higher MP count. It is the biggest, but quite possibly the only limiting factor for me. I know that many don't want that and I understand, but I really do and I think there is a place for a high pixel count M. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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