jaapv Posted September 2, 2014 Share #41 Posted September 2, 2014 Advertisement (gone after registration) The Leica T camera has enough work done to it, IN GERMANY, to allow Leica to LEGALLY claim that it is "Made in Germany". Some of it might be made in Portugal, as the M cameras and S cameras are, but both of those have enough "added value" added, in Germany, to allow Leica to state, legally, that the cameras are made in Germany. Components of all these cameras are made outside of Germany, but that doesn't stop them being Made in Germany. What does it say on the lenses for the T? I don't know, because I don't own one, but I am willing to bet that it says "Leica Camera: Germany" I don't work for Leica. It is really a bit silly to accuse a factory that complies by the rules and regulations of being misleading, just because the rules do not happen to coincide with one's own perception. Do these posters ever consider how much of their gear that is "made in Japan" is actually produced in China, Korea or Thailand (or Europe, for that matter)? My wife had a Suzuki some time ago, made in Japan, that turned out to be produced in India, before being shipped to Japan for finishing. Hello! Wake up! We live in a global economy! 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted September 2, 2014 Posted September 2, 2014 Hi jaapv, Take a look here CE junk 'printed' on T?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
NJH Posted September 2, 2014 Share #42 Posted September 2, 2014 The EC Declaration of Conformity is on the website: Downloads // Support // Service & Support - Leica Camera AG It lists all the standards the T meets several of which are I believe about the data transmitter in the camera and the others include the standards Pete (Farnz) and I mentioned earlier. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest badbob Posted September 3, 2014 Share #43 Posted September 3, 2014 The Leica T camera has enough work done to it, IN GERMANY, to allow Leica to LEGALLY claim that it is "Made in Germany". Some of it might be made in Portugal, as the M cameras and S cameras are, but both of those have enough "added value" added, in Germany, to allow Leica to state, legally, that the cameras are made in Germany. Components of all these cameras are made outside of Germany, but that doesn't stop them being Made in Germany. What does it say on the lenses for the T? I don't know, because I don't own one, but I am willing to bet that it says "Leica Camera: Germany" I don't work for Leica. I already agreed that it's legal, but my friends do not agree that it's ethical, for the reasons I stated. I can repeat my experiment on different people starting with the 45-minute finishing video, and assuming that's done in Portugal, I would expect the same reactions from any sample of people. If you have any suggestions how to present that to people and not get the reaction that it's deceptive, I'm always interested. Most people, especially customers who are apprehensive about spending $3600 on an upscale camera like the 'T', aren't going to be quite so forgiving of "technical" or legal disclaimers when they realize that that 45 minutes of work so highly touted by Leica isn't performed in Germany. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest badbob Posted September 3, 2014 Share #44 Posted September 3, 2014 It is really a bit silly to accuse a factory that complies by the rules and regulations of being misleading, just because the rules do not happen to coincide with one's own perception. Do these posters ever consider how much of their gear that is "made in Japan" is actually produced in China, Korea or Thailand (or Europe, for that matter)? My wife had a Suzuki some time ago, made in Japan, that turned out to be produced in India, before being shipped to Japan for finishing. Hello! Wake up! We live in a global economy! It's not about accusations or misperceptions of where parts come from. It's about people spending several times more for an upscale camera that's "made in Germany", where the 45-minute finishing isn't even performed in Germany. It's about what I and others perceive as deception, assuming of course that the finishing is not in fact done in Germany. Customers who spend big on a Leica T aren't (in the main) just long-time Leica users with M's and a bucket of lenses who accept whatever they get on some performance basis. The point of the T, in my view, is appealing to someone who wants a real Leica but only has $4000 to spend, not $12000 on a M with 2 lenses. That's me BTW - budget limit was $4k and I wanted a real Leica. I understood the body was made in Germany, and now I find (apparently) that probably the biggest operation, hand-finishing the aluminum frame, isn't. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
erl Posted September 3, 2014 Share #45 Posted September 3, 2014 It's not about accusations or misperceptions of where parts come from. It's about people spending several times more for an upscale camera that's "made in Germany", where the 45-minute finishing isn't even performed in Germany. It's about what I and others perceive as deception, assuming of course that the finishing is not in fact done in Germany. Customers who spend big on a Leica T aren't (in the main) just long-time Leica users with M's and a bucket of lenses who accept whatever they get on some performance basis. The point of the T, in my view, is appealing to someone who wants a real Leica but only has $4000 to spend, not $12000 on a M with 2 lenses. That's me BTW - budget limit was $4k and I wanted a real Leica. I understood the body was made in Germany, and now I find (apparently) that probably the biggest operation, hand-finishing the aluminum frame, isn't. To the best of my knowledge, my several Leica bodies, 5 or 6, (?) were made in Portugal, at least in part. Several of my top Leica lenses were made in Canada. I have no idea, nor care, where they were 'finished'. As 'gear' they all function perfectly. That is all I can distinguish. Probably all anyone can. My point! Germans aren't the only one's that have 'clever' hands. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pop Posted September 3, 2014 Share #46 Posted September 3, 2014 The explanation for "Made in X" is in the public domain and not difficult to locate. I am at a loss what to say when someone claims he has been deceived when buying a product where that explanation applies. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted September 3, 2014 Share #47 Posted September 3, 2014 (edited) Advertisement (gone after registration) It's not about accusations or misperceptions of where parts come from. It's about people spending several times more for an upscale camera that's "made in Germany", where the 45-minute finishing isn't even performed in Germany. It's about what I and others perceive as deception, assuming of course that the finishing is not in fact done in Germany. Customers who spend big on a Leica T aren't (in the main) just long-time Leica users with M's and a bucket of lenses who accept whatever they get on some performance basis. The point of the T, in my view, is appealing to someone who wants a real Leica but only has $4000 to spend, not $12000 on a M with 2 lenses. That's me BTW - budget limit was $4k and I wanted a real Leica. I understood the body was made in Germany, and now I find (apparently) that probably the biggest operation, hand-finishing the aluminum frame, isn't. I find it surprising to buy something for the location of the factory. Surely one buys products for what they are? You'll probably find that most Cuckoo Clocks are made from parts sourced from everywhere over the world. At least your aluminium block is produced in an old-established factory owned by Leica and not in a sweatshop in some forsaken part of the world. It is hardly Leica's fault that you fantasised that the body was made in Germany. The were quite open about the location of their factories for decades. Edited September 3, 2014 by jaapv 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjh Posted September 3, 2014 Share #48 Posted September 3, 2014 I understood the body was made in Germany, and now I find (apparently) that probably the biggest operation, hand-finishing the aluminum frame, isn't. M frames have been manufactured in Portugal for a long time, and now this outcry because T frames are, too? 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted September 3, 2014 Share #49 Posted September 3, 2014 ...my other "Made in Germany" myth... Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! (3 pairs in 35 years around... which for an avid mountain hiker means a VERY durable boot) ...but am not SO sure that ALL Meindl boots are still really from there... (sorry, mods... OOT at all... ) 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! (3 pairs in 35 years around... which for an avid mountain hiker means a VERY durable boot) ...but am not SO sure that ALL Meindl boots are still really from there... (sorry, mods... OOT at all... ) ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/229626-ce-junk-printed-on-t/?do=findComment&comment=2662829'>More sharing options...
andybarton Posted September 3, 2014 Share #50 Posted September 3, 2014 (edited) That's me BTW - budget limit was $4k and I wanted a real Leica. I understood the body was made in Germany, and now I find (apparently) that probably the biggest operation, hand-finishing the aluminum frame, isn't. You have a real Leica. It's not a Panaleica. Of the three cameras you list in your signature, it's the only "real Leica". It's a 100% Leica. Exactly the same as an M, or an S, or an R before it. I cannot believe that anyone can get so hung up on where a block of aluminium is polished, nor consider that operation to be the "biggest". What if, say, Leica employed a group of Portuguese, or Thais, or Turks, or Britons, or Americans to hand-polish these blocks in Germany? How do you know that they don't employ people from all over the world in the factory in Germany? Would you demand that only 4th generation people, native to Wetzlar, do this job? Or is the physical location of the polishing room the issue? Leica haven't made their cameras solely in Germany for years. decades, probably. The Midland, Ontario plant (since sold) was built as an insurance against a Russian invasion of Europe and was the saviour of the company after the M5 debacle. The Portuguese plant was built because labour costs there are (or were) lower than in Germany. The quality of the plant, the training, the facilities and importantly the staff and the cameras is identical to what they would be if they were made in Solms. But the labour cost is less. Maybe, if the camera had been 100% assembled (and polished) in Germany, your $4,000 budget would have only bought you 80% of a $5,000 camera. You wouldn't have your real Leica at all. If I ever buy another Leica, the last thing I will worry about is whether it was polished by a Stefan or a Jose or a Chuck, or whether he could see Hessen out of his window while he was doing it. Edited September 3, 2014 by andybarton 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manoleica Posted September 3, 2014 Share #51 Posted September 3, 2014 What amazes me is the amount of people that buy Leica equipment and then complain it's not 200% made in Germany.. Don't they ever look before writing a check or handing over the CC? .. As some have already said "it's a global world" With Leica you are buying into an experience and a history. Photographically I would surmise that probably 30% of all Leica owners have no real photographic knowledge, just that they have the Red Dot to show off.. But hey their money counts the same as everybody else's in the Leica bank..Those of us that appreciate Leica images are whilst not happy to accept the electronic glitches accept that technology is not perfect. I'm somewhat sad that Leica have allowed the latest models onto the market whilst it seems still in the later stages of R&D. Even allowing for an immediate exchange of faulty or frozen cameras Leica should have far better testing and QC.. No excuses Wetzlar.. Finally, the balance between IQ and electronic issues lays at this time with IQ. If the balance swings the other way some will move to other brands that whilst not having that Leica look will suffice due to reliability.. It's coffee time... Regards, L.. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted September 3, 2014 Share #52 Posted September 3, 2014 (edited) I already agreed that it's legal, but my friends do not agree that it's ethical, for the reasons I stated. What about BMWs made in the US? Or Mercedes made in South Africa? Would you refuse to buy them because they aren't "Made in Germany"? How many VW Beetles in the US were actually made in Germany, and how many sourced from Mexico and Brazil? The BMWs might well have an engine made in the UK. The Mercedes might well have an engine made by Peugeot. In Romania. Who knows? Obviously, the comparison isn't a direct one because it will declare under the bonnet that the car is made in the US or SA, but the principle is the same. Edited September 3, 2014 by andybarton 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
erl Posted September 3, 2014 Share #53 Posted September 3, 2014 It strikes me that the 'malcontents' Are more 'label' oriented than 'function' oriented. Books and covers comes to mind. 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted September 3, 2014 Share #54 Posted September 3, 2014 My 240 has no glitches - the EVF-Heat problem that I had is solved - so what are you carrying on about? What amazes me is the amount of people that buy Leica equipment and then complain it's not 200% made in Germany.. Don't they ever look before writing a check or handing over the CC? .. As some have already said "it's a global world"With Leica you are buying into an experience and a history. Photographically I would surmise that probably 30% of all Leica owners have no real photographic knowledge, just that they have the Red Dot to show off.. But hey their money counts the same as everybody else's in the Leica bank..Those of us that appreciate Leica images are whilst not happy to accept the electronic glitches accept that technology is not perfect. I'm somewhat sad that Leica have allowed the latest models onto the market whilst it seems still in the later stages of R&D. Even allowing for an immediate exchange of faulty or frozen cameras Leica should have far better testing and QC.. No excuses Wetzlar.. Finally, the balance between IQ and electronic issues lays at this time with IQ. If the balance swings the other way some will move to other brands that whilst not having that Leica look will suffice due to reliability.. It's coffee time... Regards, L.. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest badbob Posted September 3, 2014 Share #55 Posted September 3, 2014 To the best of my knowledge, my several Leica bodies, 5 or 6, (?) were made in Portugal, at least in part. Several of my top Leica lenses were made in Canada. I have no idea, nor care, where they were 'finished'. As 'gear' they all function perfectly. That is all I can distinguish. Probably all anyone can. My point! Germans aren't the only one's that have 'clever' hands. I worked in electronics retail in Los Angeles/Beverly Hills for 7 years, and I can tell you without any doubt that they do care, and care a lot. You're not the prototype Leica T customer, who has a small budget like me, and doesn't already have all that "other stuff". Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest badbob Posted September 3, 2014 Share #56 Posted September 3, 2014 What about BMWs made in the US? Or Mercedes made in South Africa? Would you refuse to buy them because they aren't "Made in Germany"? How many VW Beetles in the US were actually made in Germany, and how many sourced from Mexico and Brazil? The BMWs might well have an engine made in the UK. The Mercedes might well have an engine made by Peugeot. In Romania. Who knows? Obviously, the comparison isn't a direct one because it will declare under the bonnet that the car is made in the US or SA, but the principle is the same. You keep diverting away from the issue. The 45 minute video sells that camera as made (with considerable labor) at the place indicated on the bottom of the camera. It's deceptive, and any "reasonable man" (as they say in court) can see that. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest badbob Posted September 3, 2014 Share #57 Posted September 3, 2014 You have a real Leica. It's not a Panaleica. Of the three cameras you list in your signature, it's the only "real Leica". It's a 100% Leica. Exactly the same as an M, or an S, or an R before it. I cannot believe that anyone can get so hung up on where a block of aluminium is polished, nor consider that operation to be the "biggest". What if, say, Leica employed a group of Portuguese, or Thais, or Turks, or Britons, or Americans to hand-polish these blocks in Germany? How do you know that they don't employ people from all over the world in the factory in Germany? Would you demand that only 4th generation people, native to Wetzlar, do this job? Or is the physical location of the polishing room the issue? Leica haven't made their cameras solely in Germany for years. decades, probably. The Midland, Ontario plant (since sold) was built as an insurance against a Russian invasion of Europe and was the saviour of the company after the M5 debacle. The Portuguese plant was built because labour costs there are (or were) lower than in Germany. The quality of the plant, the training, the facilities and importantly the staff and the cameras is identical to what they would be if they were made in Solms. But the labour cost is less. Maybe, if the camera had been 100% assembled (and polished) in Germany, your $4,000 budget would have only bought you 80% of a $5,000 camera. You wouldn't have your real Leica at all. If I ever buy another Leica, the last thing I will worry about is whether it was polished by a Stefan or a Jose or a Chuck, or whether he could see Hessen out of his window while he was doing it. This is another diversion. Of course any of these are possible with any product, and if there is no 45-minute video showing extensive labor implying that labor is performed in the place written on the camera, no problem. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted September 3, 2014 Share #58 Posted September 3, 2014 I worked in electronics retail in Los Angeles/Beverly Hills for 7 years, and I can tell you without any doubt that they do care, and care a lot. I recently bought an Arcam BluRay player. Arcam being a well established, British mid-range hifi company. I already have one of their amplifiers from 25 years ago and have had a CD player of theirs in the past. Both of which were assembled in the UK. When I got the new BluRay home, I found that it had "Made in PRC" on the box. Was I disappointed? Maybe, for about 2 seconds. Was I surprised? No. Does it make a scrap of difference to my enjoyment of Season 4 of "Breaking Bad"? Absolutely not. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest badbob Posted September 3, 2014 Share #59 Posted September 3, 2014 M frames have been manufactured in Portugal for a long time, and now this outcry because T frames are, too? I had the M4-2 and M6, and am quite familiar with Portugal as well as Canadian lenses. But neither of those was accompanied by a 45 minute labor-intensive video. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest badbob Posted September 3, 2014 Share #60 Posted September 3, 2014 I recently bought an Arcam BluRay player. Arcam being a well established, British mid-range hifi company. I already have one of their amplifiers from 25 years ago and have had a CD player of theirs in the past. Both of which were assembled in the UK. When I got the new BluRay home, I found that it had "Made in PRC" on the box. Was I disappointed? Maybe, for about 2 seconds. Was I surprised? No. Does it make a scrap of difference to my enjoyment of Season 4 of "Breaking Bad"? Absolutely not. A third diversion. Were these heavily promoted as made elsewhere? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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